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02-01-2014, 11:47 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(31-12-2013 11:58 AM)kim Wrote:  
(31-12-2013 10:56 AM)Chas Wrote:  Then you misunderstand the burden of proof. Whichever one makes a definite claim has the burden of proof.

Yea, that's just whack, Kingsy.

The notion that a thing does not exist requires no proof. Lack of evidence is proof enough.
If the notion that said thing might indeed exist, even though there is no evidence then, the person with the notion (that this thing might exist) must be called upon to provide evidence to prove this thing exists.

Has nothing to do with belief or god or popcorn in the Alps. Drinking Beverage

I didn't say that it didn't need evidence. I just said that it was a different type of evidence... and that my experiences count as evidence to me.

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02-01-2014, 11:50 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(02-01-2014 09:37 AM)Monster_Riffs Wrote:  I have a question for any of the theists on here. It comes from my position as an ex Mormon. When I was in the church, they were very definite about their 1 version of Christianity being the right one and to receive full reward in the next life you had to be all singing all dancing LDS. One of my best friends was raised Catholic and another one JW and I know it applies to their denominations too.

So, does your particular branch, denomination or church specify that only they have it right and none members are not going to be rewarded in the next life? If so/not so, do you personally agree/disagree with this?

When I was a practicing mormon I was pretty much agnostic theist, this question is one of the main reasons I became agnostic atheist, so I'm fascinated to know what you guys think?

Pretty much the only prerequisite for salvation that we are taught in Protestant circles is that one must accept that Christ is the only way for salvation. This is why, for the most part, Protestants can weave in and out of Protestant denominations with little backlash.

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02-01-2014, 11:51 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(02-01-2014 10:38 AM)crazylikeyou Wrote:  I've browesed the last 10 or so pages; hopefully this isn't too simplistic, but I've thought this way even when I was a Christian.

As a Calvinist, can't you picture God up there essentially playing doll house? I feel like that's what he is doing...

Like a little girl playing barbie....
Sending people to hell...
Certain ones going to heaven....

It just seems childish.

I get what you're saying, but I do feel that it's a bit more complicated than that.

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02-01-2014, 12:12 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(02-01-2014 11:51 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(02-01-2014 10:38 AM)crazylikeyou Wrote:  I've browesed the last 10 or so pages; hopefully this isn't too simplistic, but I've thought this way even when I was a Christian.

As a Calvinist, can't you picture God up there essentially playing doll house? I feel like that's what he is doing...

Like a little girl playing barbie....
Sending people to hell...
Certain ones going to heaven....

It just seems childish.

I get what you're saying, but I do feel that it's a bit more complicated than that.

No offense, but that is a cop out.
It doesn't need to be complicated!
John Piper can't answer a simple question such as "How does sending people to hell/predestination glorify god?" without making it complicated because unless you add all this extra theological fluff it just sounds plain mean.

Because it is.

I would embed the youtube video but don't know how.

You have to fill your mind with books/videos on calvinism for it to start sitting well with you. Been there, done that-it was a total mind fuck.
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02-01-2014, 12:18 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(02-01-2014 12:12 PM)crazylikeyou Wrote:  
(02-01-2014 11:51 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  I get what you're saying, but I do feel that it's a bit more complicated than that.

No offense, but that is a cop out.
It doesn't need to be complicated!
John Piper can't answer a simple question such as "How does sending people to hell/predestination glorify god?" without making it complicated because unless you add all this extra theological fluff it just sounds plain mean.

Because it is.

I would embed the youtube video but don't know how.

You have to fill your mind with books/videos on calvinism for it to start sitting well with you. Been there, done that-it was a total mind fuck.

You can feel that way.

I don't see it as a copout. I see your example as putting over-importance on humanity in regards to an infinite God. Humanity serves a purpose in this infinite God's plan. We only feel like we're more important because we are that humanity.

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02-01-2014, 12:19 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(02-01-2014 12:18 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(02-01-2014 12:12 PM)crazylikeyou Wrote:  No offense, but that is a cop out.
It doesn't need to be complicated!
John Piper can't answer a simple question such as "How does sending people to hell/predestination glorify god?" without making it complicated because unless you add all this extra theological fluff it just sounds plain mean.

Because it is.

I would embed the youtube video but don't know how.

You have to fill your mind with books/videos on calvinism for it to start sitting well with you. Been there, done that-it was a total mind fuck.

You can feel that way.

I don't see it as a copout. I see your example as putting over-importance on humanity in regards to an infinite God. Humanity serves a purpose in this infinite God's plan. We only feel like we're more important because we are that humanity.

And the little detail that we actually exist. Drinking Beverage

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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02-01-2014, 12:34 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
Seems like a crummy plan to me

typical theist: "But God's ways are higher than our ways"

I know, I know...Dodgy
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02-01-2014, 12:39 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(02-01-2014 12:34 PM)crazylikeyou Wrote:  Seems like a crummy plan to me

typical theist: "But God's ways are higher than our ways"

I know, I know...Dodgy

Well, I'm a pretty atypical theist. I don't believe that God's way are higher than ours based on our relative morality because sometimes the things God does seems downright immoral to us.

I'm just saying that God is autonomous and has a plan of His own. We are simply part of that plan; therefore, things happen - good and bad. God doesn't answer to our relative morality because He's only bound by His standard of morality... whatever that is (we can't know that because it's only His).

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02-01-2014, 01:44 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(02-01-2014 12:39 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Well, I'm a pretty atypical theist.

Well, no - no you're not. Most theists have not actually thought about their theology and its implications. Most of them seem to have a rather shallow understanding of what it is they are subscribing to and an appalling ignorance of whatever holy book they are supposedly being guided by.

No, most theists follow a local cultural variant of their religion, led by charlatans, mountebanks, or sincere, well-meaning fools.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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02-01-2014, 02:02 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(02-01-2014 09:57 AM)maklelanyou're rpid='456254 Wrote:  
(02-01-2014 09:37 AM)Monster_Riffs Wrote:  I have a question for any of the theists on here. It comes from my position as an ex Mormon. When I was in the church, they were very definite about their 1 version of Christianity being the right one and to receive full reward in the next life you had to be all singing all dancing LDS. One of my best friends was raised Catholic and another one JW and I know it applies to their denominations too.

I think this is an oversimplification that relies more on characterization and rhetoric than on actual practice. It may accurately characterize many members of the LDS Church, but it's certainly not normative.

(02-01-2014 09:37 AM)Monster_Riffs Wrote:  So, does your particular branch, denomination or church specify that only they have it right and none members are not going to be rewarded in the next life? If so/not so, do you personally agree/disagree with this?

I personally disagree with this, and I would feel sorry for someone who subscribes to such a soteriology.

(02-01-2014 09:37 AM)Monster_Riffs Wrote:  When I was a practicing mormon I was pretty much agnostic theist, this question is one of the main reasons I became agnostic atheist, so I'm fascinated to know what you guys think?

I think and hope you're right about not all members of LDS thinking like that but you can't escape the fact that it's church doctrine to tick specific boxes to get in to the top Kingdom of heaven. It's just a plain fact that it is LDS doctrine. I used Catholicism and the JWs in my example because I know they're the same.

It's refreshing to hear (assuming you are LDS) that you choose not to just close your mind on it though. Thanks for the feedback.

I'll just play the 'can I help you' lick!!!
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