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16-01-2014, 01:57 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(16-01-2014 10:18 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  Logically and rationally speaking - probably the latter.

But my *heart* tells me the former... it's so hard when you're in love with a genocidal immortal megalomaniac... all rationality just goes out the window Tongue

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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16-01-2014, 05:57 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(16-01-2014 10:18 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(15-01-2014 06:31 PM)viole Wrote:  So, if i may ask a question in the Hume's style.

What is more likely: that the creator of the universe, all the galaxies, spacetime, gravity, billions and billions and trillions of stars, etc. chose a tribe in the middle East as his chosen people, or that a tribe in the middle East invented a God who chose them?

What does your rationality suggest?

Ciao

- viole

Logically and rationally speaking - probably the latter.

Well, thanks for your (epistemological) openness.

All I can do now is wish you luck in your journey and that you may find a way to harmonize your faith with your rationality.

I'll be back.

Ciao

- viole
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16-01-2014, 06:18 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
I'mma ask a theist: what do you like most about the United States?
... aside from the abundance of roadkill and guns.

The people closely associated with the namesake of female canines are suffering from a nondescript form of lunacy.
"Anti-environmentalism is like standing in front of a forest and going 'quick kill them they're coming right for us!'" - Jake Farr-Wharton, The Imaginary Friend Show.
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16-01-2014, 07:05 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(16-01-2014 10:18 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(15-01-2014 11:41 PM)Seacaptain58 Wrote:  IF you are referring to Romans 9.17-18 you will notice that it quoted scriptures from Exodus 7-14, there God did harden the heart of the pharaoh (singular)for a reason. But he does not harden mans heart(as in mankind). Mankind does a good enough job of that.. Hebrews 3-8 which quotes Psalms 95.8 tells mankind not to harden their hearts (but as we know we did anyways). This is where what I said, the Bible and faith do not harden peoples (mankind's )heart. Again mankind does a good enough job of that.
Your welcome

You never made that distinction until now.

Last I checked, "peoples" are individuals.

There is biblical proof that God hardens hearts. It's plain and simple... whether it be an individual or a group, that's irrelevant.

Again you quoted "hearts" as in the plural sense. As what I said before, If you could not make the distinction , then you are obviously not what you say you are. You sound more "atheist" than "theist" unless you are a polemist then I totally understand why you are here..as for posting over 2500 post. so what.. all that says is that you a lot of static time on your hands.. . geez , but I do have to admit, I have learned a great deal visiting these forums and finding out different reasons why most non believers do not believe. I refrain from further comments regarding the reasons. Thank you
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16-01-2014, 08:59 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(16-01-2014 10:21 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(15-01-2014 06:37 PM)Cathym112 Wrote:  KC - being that you have been on the TTA a long time. Have any of the Atheist arguments impacted you? If so, which ones?

I answered this earlier... sec, let me show you what I wrote:

(22-12-2013 10:58 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  I would like to think not, but if I'm going to be honest... I don't really know.

I mean, my beliefs haven't change... I still believe what I believe when I created this topic... but I've change.

The change in me is evident. People who have been here for as long as I have have seen, and I'm not going to pretend it's not there.

I've become more contempt and jaded towards Christians in general and Christian establishments. I've gotten to the point where I can barely stomach these hypocrits that claim Christ.

But, is it my exposure to atheism that spurred this?

Writing this, I just realized something.

Yes. Being an admin has changed my views on theism.

I've walked alongside y'all, and even been thought to be an atheist myself on several occasions. I've experience the shunning, spite, and malice from other Christians because of this. I've walked in your shoes, so to speak.

And it's eye opening.

Since coming to TTA, I've realized why people can't stand Christians. It's because of the way we act. The way we judge. The way we condemn.

I absolutely loathe it.

I think it also helped me realize how different I was from other Christians in my personal life and gave me the courage to stand up and say, "No. This isn't right."

For which, I've been shunned.

Strange, though. In spite of all of this, my faith remains. Solid. True.

I guess now, I'm just trying to find where I fit in.

Your own, personal, Jesus Smile Also, you should rename this thread "Ask an Atypical Theist." Maybe study some more liberal bible interpretions. I know a lot of their theology hinges on the mistranslation of 'hell' and 'eternity' and thus they view it as a more finite punishment. There's a forum called 'Tentmaker' who's members explain Universalism pretty well.
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17-01-2014, 04:14 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(22-12-2013 10:58 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  I would like to think not, but if I'm going to be honest... I don't really know.

I mean, my beliefs haven't change... I still believe what I believe when I created this topic... but I've change.

The change in me is evident. People who have been here for as long as I have have seen, and I'm not going to pretend it's not there.

I've become more contempt and jaded towards Christians in general and Christian establishments. I've gotten to the point where I can barely stomach these hypocrits that claim Christ.

But, is it my exposure to atheism that spurred this?

Writing this, I just realized something.

Yes. Being an admin has changed my views on theism.

I've walked alongside y'all, and even been thought to be an atheist myself on several occasions. I've experience the shunning, spite, and malice from other Christians because of this. I've walked in your shoes, so to speak.

And it's eye opening.

Since coming to TTA, I've realized why people can't stand Christians. It's because of the way we act. The way we judge. The way we condemn.

I absolutely loathe it.

I think it also helped me realize how different I was from other Christians in my personal life and gave me the courage to stand up and say, "No. This isn't right."

For which, I've been shunned.

Strange, though. In spite of all of this, my faith remains. Solid. True.

I guess now, I'm just trying to find where I fit in.
I would have missed this were it not for Jaxx quoting it.

Outstanding post, Kingschosen.
I'll keep this as brief as I can.

I became a believer of the "fundamentalist" type around the same time that Al Gore invented his amazing internet.
I would launch my ignorant self righteous self at all comers on IRC, claiming I could prove god, blah blah blah.
One day, an atheist asked me, "What is so unreasonable about wanting tangible evidence?" My stupid funny ego must have been napping at the time because I heard the sincerity in the question.
(I'm gonna skip a lot of details here so as not to seem like a hijacker)
Anyway, I spent countless hours with my pastor in discussion and eventually found myself being more and more repulsed by the stance of not only my own denomination, but all others as well.
I was finally asked to leave my church and was even offered an exorcism as a parting gift. I told them to shove it and didn't look back.
As I was on the cusp to abandoning my faith, I had an experience that gave me pause, which I will not relate here, as it will have no meaning for the non-believer and will only muddy my point. Suffice it to say, I was launched in a direction that brought me to a far better place of understanding and removed ALL condemnation from my faith, while not only increasing that faith but also an understanding that most of our brethren cannot comprehend.
The result being, I can come into a forum such as this and be unassailable in my beliefs, that is. The "worst" that a nonbeliever can honestly declare to me is, " I don't believe you." Since it is my understanding that the nonbeliever is supposed to be just as they are.

For years now, my yardstick for validating my belief has been how my fellow believers loath me. I don't brag of this. I find it unfortunate, but I do understand why they are this way.

As you have found, it is not the nonbeliever who is our adversary.
As you are currently finding, it is our fellow believers who are.

It's been over a decade since I've come across a believer whom I would consider a peer. Certainly impossible in my day to day. Even in my search on Al Gore's Amazing Internet, it's been fruitless. But every once in a great while, I come across someone like you.

So to you, unless invited otherwise, I will say only this:

Our young faith was turned to sand by the words of men. If you remain standing upon the faith you claim as you first abandon their understanding and later as they surely will abandon you, that sand will turn to rock.

That's it.

"If you're going my way, I'll go with you."- Jim Croce
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17-01-2014, 06:04 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
Kestrel, do you think that it is a good thing for someone to be a believer if they do not share your understanding of faith ? i.e. are those other fellow believers still onto something good, do you think there is truth in what they believe, or has the *content* of your faith changed from fundamentalist Christianity ?

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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17-01-2014, 07:44 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(17-01-2014 04:14 AM)Kestrel Wrote:  
(22-12-2013 10:58 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  I would like to think not, but if I'm going to be honest... I don't really know.

I mean, my beliefs haven't change... I still believe what I believe when I created this topic... but I've change.

The change in me is evident. People who have been here for as long as I have have seen, and I'm not going to pretend it's not there.

I've become more contempt and jaded towards Christians in general and Christian establishments. I've gotten to the point where I can barely stomach these hypocrits that claim Christ.

But, is it my exposure to atheism that spurred this?

Writing this, I just realized something.

Yes. Being an admin has changed my views on theism.

I've walked alongside y'all, and even been thought to be an atheist myself on several occasions. I've experience the shunning, spite, and malice from other Christians because of this. I've walked in your shoes, so to speak.

And it's eye opening.

Since coming to TTA, I've realized why people can't stand Christians. It's because of the way we act. The way we judge. The way we condemn.

I absolutely loathe it.

I think it also helped me realize how different I was from other Christians in my personal life and gave me the courage to stand up and say, "No. This isn't right."

For which, I've been shunned.

Strange, though. In spite of all of this, my faith remains. Solid. True.

I guess now, I'm just trying to find where I fit in.
I would have missed this were it not for Jaxx quoting it.

Outstanding post, Kingschosen.
I'll keep this as brief as I can.

I became a believer of the "fundamentalist" type around the same time that Al Gore invented his amazing internet.
I would launch my ignorant self righteous self at all comers on IRC, claiming I could prove god, blah blah blah.
One day, an atheist asked me, "What is so unreasonable about wanting tangible evidence?" My stupid funny ego must have been napping at the time because I heard the sincerity in the question.
(I'm gonna skip a lot of details here so as not to seem like a hijacker)
Anyway, I spent countless hours with my pastor in discussion and eventually found myself being more and more repulsed by the stance of not only my own denomination, but all others as well.
I was finally asked to leave my church and was even offered an exorcism as a parting gift. I told them to shove it and didn't look back.
As I was on the cusp to abandoning my faith, I had an experience that gave me pause, which I will not relate here, as it will have no meaning for the non-believer and will only muddy my point. Suffice it to say, I was launched in a direction that brought me to a far better place of understanding and removed ALL condemnation from my faith, while not only increasing that faith but also an understanding that most of our brethren cannot comprehend.
The result being, I can come into a forum such as this and be unassailable in my beliefs, that is. The "worst" that a nonbeliever can honestly declare to me is, " I don't believe you." Since it is my understanding that the nonbeliever is supposed to be just as they are.

For years now, my yardstick for validating my belief has been how my fellow believers loath me. I don't brag of this. I find it unfortunate, but I do understand why they are this way.

As you have found, it is not the nonbeliever who is our adversary.
As you are currently finding, it is our fellow believers who are.

It's been over a decade since I've come across a believer whom I would consider a peer. Certainly impossible in my day to day. Even in my search on Al Gore's Amazing Internet, it's been fruitless. But every once in a great while, I come across someone like you.

So to you, unless invited otherwise, I will say only this:

Our young faith was turned to sand by the words of men. If you remain standing upon the faith you claim as you first abandon their understanding and later as they surely will abandon you, that sand will turn to rock.

That's it.

Thank you.

That was an amazing post.

I'm glad I found a Christian contemporary that I can relate to.

And, you're right... my yardstick has been how much the mainstreamers dislike me.

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17-01-2014, 07:47 AM (This post was last modified: 17-01-2014 07:53 AM by Chas.)
RE: Ask a Theist!
(17-01-2014 04:14 AM)Kestrel Wrote:  
(22-12-2013 10:58 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  I would like to think not, but if I'm going to be honest... I don't really know.

I mean, my beliefs haven't change... I still believe what I believe when I created this topic... but I've change.

The change in me is evident. People who have been here for as long as I have have seen, and I'm not going to pretend it's not there.

I've become more contempt and jaded towards Christians in general and Christian establishments. I've gotten to the point where I can barely stomach these hypocrits that claim Christ.

But, is it my exposure to atheism that spurred this?

Writing this, I just realized something.

Yes. Being an admin has changed my views on theism.

I've walked alongside y'all, and even been thought to be an atheist myself on several occasions. I've experience the shunning, spite, and malice from other Christians because of this. I've walked in your shoes, so to speak.

And it's eye opening.

Since coming to TTA, I've realized why people can't stand Christians. It's because of the way we act. The way we judge. The way we condemn.

I absolutely loathe it.

I think it also helped me realize how different I was from other Christians in my personal life and gave me the courage to stand up and say, "No. This isn't right."

For which, I've been shunned.

Strange, though. In spite of all of this, my faith remains. Solid. True.

I guess now, I'm just trying to find where I fit in.
I would have missed this were it not for Jaxx quoting it.

Outstanding post, Kingschosen.
I'll keep this as brief as I can.

I became a believer of the "fundamentalist" type around the same time that Al Gore invented his amazing internet.
I would launch my ignorant self righteous self at all comers on IRC, claiming I could prove god, blah blah blah.
One day, an atheist asked me, "What is so unreasonable about wanting tangible evidence?" My stupid funny ego must have been napping at the time because I heard the sincerity in the question.
(I'm gonna skip a lot of details here so as not to seem like a hijacker)
Anyway, I spent countless hours with my pastor in discussion and eventually found myself being more and more repulsed by the stance of not only my own denomination, but all others as well.
I was finally asked to leave my church and was even offered an exorcism as a parting gift. I told them to shove it and didn't look back.
As I was on the cusp to abandoning my faith, I had an experience that gave me pause, which I will not relate here, as it will have no meaning for the non-believer and will only muddy my point. Suffice it to say, I was launched in a direction that brought me to a far better place of understanding and removed ALL condemnation from my faith, while not only increasing that faith but also an understanding that most of our brethren cannot comprehend.
The result being, I can come into a forum such as this and be unassailable in my beliefs, that is. The "worst" that a nonbeliever can honestly declare to me is, " I don't believe you." Since it is my understanding that the nonbeliever is supposed to be just as they are.

For years now, my yardstick for validating my belief has been how my fellow believers loath me. I don't brag of this. I find it unfortunate, but I do understand why they are this way.

As you have found, it is not the nonbeliever who is our adversary.
As you are currently finding, it is our fellow believers who are.

It's been over a decade since I've come across a believer whom I would consider a peer. Certainly impossible in my day to day. Even in my search on Al Gore's Amazing Internet, it's been fruitless. But every once in a great while, I come across someone like you.

So to you, unless invited otherwise, I will say only this:

Our young faith was turned to sand by the words of men. If you remain standing upon the faith you claim as you first abandon their understanding and later as they surely will abandon you, that sand will turn to rock.

That's it.

Your certainty is terrifying. Drinking Beverage

It is doubt that keeps us rational and gives us wisdom.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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17-01-2014, 07:52 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(16-01-2014 07:05 PM)Seacaptain58 Wrote:  
(16-01-2014 10:18 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  You never made that distinction until now.

Last I checked, "peoples" are individuals.

There is biblical proof that God hardens hearts. It's plain and simple... whether it be an individual or a group, that's irrelevant.

Again you quoted "hearts" as in the plural sense. As what I said before, If you could not make the distinction , then you are obviously not what you say you are. You sound more "atheist" than "theist" unless you are a polemist then I totally understand why you are here..as for posting over 2500 post. so what.. all that says is that you a lot of static time on your hands.. . geez , but I do have to admit, I have learned a great deal visiting these forums and finding out different reasons why most non believers do not believe. I refrain from further comments regarding the reasons. Thank you

Hopeless.

Here's a present.

[Image: Sand.jpg]

Pound it to your heart's content.

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