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06-03-2014, 09:52 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(05-03-2014 08:00 AM)DeavonReye Wrote:  I think the idea of "a predestination god" is a pretty evil one, really. The idea that ONLY a few are chosen and the vast majority "damned", . . . and "for his glory" . . . . is evidence of this. I wouldn't want to be "a chosen" in such a scenario. It would mean that I would HAVE to agree with that "vast majority being damned" [and depending on the denomination, how they will spend an eternity], . . . and I could never find peace, joy, or love in knowing so many are in that situation as a result OF "the god I was chosen by". Plus, . . . that "chosen" . . . .doesn't really explain what that "eternal chosen life" will be like. That isn't written. What would be an act that this type of god "would be glorified in"?

This is a common criticism of people who believe in election.

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06-03-2014, 10:32 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
In all fairness, KC, how does a 'chosen one' resign themselves to the fact that they might at any moment be talking to someone 'un-chosen'? Don't you have guilt over that? Like me.......... I am likely un-chosen in your belief system. Don't you feel a pang of guilt knowing that I will not enjoy the benefits that you will?
How do you wrap your head around those of us who remain un-chosen??

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06-03-2014, 10:42 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(06-03-2014 10:32 AM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  In all fairness, KC, how does a 'chosen one' resign themselves to the fact that they might at any moment be talking to someone 'un-chosen'? Don't you have guilt over that? Like me.......... I am likely un-chosen in your belief system. Don't you feel a pang of guilt knowing that I will not enjoy the benefits that you will?
How do you wrap your head around those of us who remain un-chosen??

Sadcryface

There would have to be some sort of "memory wipe" . . . and "information secrets" for those IF they have any humanity within them. That's the only way I would be okay if I had been "a chosen one". Knowing the complete truth, . . . I couldn't condone "those who where made for destruction", . . . especially if that "destruction" were also "eternally torturous for those not chosen".
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06-03-2014, 10:46 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(06-03-2014 10:32 AM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  In all fairness, KC, how does a 'chosen one' resign themselves to the fact that they might at any moment be talking to someone 'un-chosen'? Don't you have guilt over that? Like me.......... I am likely un-chosen in your belief system. Don't you feel a pang of guilt knowing that I will not enjoy the benefits that you will?
How do you wrap your head around those of us who remain un-chosen??

Sadcryface

I had no idea who is chosen and who isn't. That being said, I have no idea if someone will have a regeneration later in life.

That hope helps alleviate the sadness of possible damnation for those that I care about; likewise, the acceptance that I'm not going to know about those that are damned when I die.

It's along the same lines of how an atheist believes that there will be no consciousness after death; therefore, no remembrance of those lost or anything really.

In my belief, my only consciousness will be that of being in the presence of God in heaven and all my desires being changed to focus on praising Him.

I know this sounds like a raw deal, especially for all eternity, but if my desires are changed to only wanting to praise Him, then I will be doing exactly what I want to be doing for all existence.

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06-03-2014, 10:47 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
Do you not experience some level of cognitive dissonance reading the reasoned arguments against predestination while continuing to hold the belief?
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06-03-2014, 11:03 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(06-03-2014 10:46 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(06-03-2014 10:32 AM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  In all fairness, KC, how does a 'chosen one' resign themselves to the fact that they might at any moment be talking to someone 'un-chosen'? Don't you have guilt over that? Like me.......... I am likely un-chosen in your belief system. Don't you feel a pang of guilt knowing that I will not enjoy the benefits that you will?
How do you wrap your head around those of us who remain un-chosen??

Sadcryface

I had no idea who is chosen and who isn't. That being said, I have no idea if someone will have a regeneration later in life.

That hope helps alleviate the sadness of possible damnation for those that I care about; likewise, the acceptance that I'm not going to know about those that are damned when I die.

It's along the same lines of how an atheist believes that there will be no consciousness after death; therefore, no remembrance of those lost or anything really.

In my belief, my only consciousness will be that of being in the presence of God in heaven and all my desires being changed to focus on praising Him.

I know this sounds like a raw deal, especially for all eternity, but if my desires are changed to only wanting to praise Him, then I will be doing exactly what I want to be doing for all existence.


Thank you for taking my question seriously (as you always do). It just suddenly occurred to me that should I be in your shoes - that would trouble me greatly.
That being said - I'm convinced that any/all belief systems or faiths come with their fair share of sacrifices. And I'm also convinced that since there's no absolute in those sacrifices that the infinite god seeking worship denies us truth.
You should not have to live blindly and I don't understand a god who demands that of you.

or............

I'll just fall back on my own stand-by:
We are mere mortals and human and cannot possibly fathom something as huge as a god. And we only seek to put something huge as a god into a box of words and examples we can mortally understand. Which is why god remains man-made and only some sort of invented faith can offer a true god.



You have faith.
I only have faith...........in You........... a mere mortal and good man.
I don't require a faith in something bigger than you.

When I want your opinion I'll read your entrails.
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06-03-2014, 11:11 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(06-03-2014 10:47 AM)TwoCultSurvivor Wrote:  Do you not experience some level of cognitive dissonance reading the reasoned arguments against predestination while continuing to hold the belief?

I'm sure what a "reasoned argument" is. Predestination is pretty solid.

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06-03-2014, 11:15 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(06-03-2014 11:03 AM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  
(06-03-2014 10:46 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  I had no idea who is chosen and who isn't. That being said, I have no idea if someone will have a regeneration later in life.

That hope helps alleviate the sadness of possible damnation for those that I care about; likewise, the acceptance that I'm not going to know about those that are damned when I die.

It's along the same lines of how an atheist believes that there will be no consciousness after death; therefore, no remembrance of those lost or anything really.

In my belief, my only consciousness will be that of being in the presence of God in heaven and all my desires being changed to focus on praising Him.

I know this sounds like a raw deal, especially for all eternity, but if my desires are changed to only wanting to praise Him, then I will be doing exactly what I want to be doing for all existence.


Thank you for taking my question seriously (as you always do). It just suddenly occurred to me that should I be in your shoes - that would trouble me greatly.
That being said - I'm convinced that any/all belief systems or faiths come with their fair share of sacrifices. And I'm also convinced that since there's no absolute in those sacrifices that the infinite god seeking worship denies us truth.
You should not have to live blindly and I don't understand a god who demands that of you.

or............

I'll just fall back on my own stand-by:
We are mere mortals and human and cannot possibly fathom something as huge as a god. And we only seek to put something huge as a god into a box of words and examples we can mortally understand. Which is why god remains man-made and only some sort of invented faith can offer a true god.



You have faith.
I only have faith...........in You........... a mere mortal and good man.
I don't require a faith in something bigger than you.

Thank you for that.

In addition, I would also like to add, that I have never claimed that according to my morality that I didn't find some of God's actions abhorrent.

In my limited knowledge and relative morality, I do find some of the actions God has done and parts of His understood plan to be unjust. But, since I have faith that God is omniscient, I have to concede to His ultimate knowledge and that my relative morality isn't the same as His for His predestined plan.

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06-03-2014, 11:29 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(06-03-2014 11:15 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  In addition, I would also like to add, that I have never claimed that according to my morality that I didn't find some of God's actions abhorrent.

In my limited knowledge and relative morality, I do find some of the actions God has done and parts of His understood plan to be unjust. But, since I have faith that God is omniscient, I have to concede to His ultimate knowledge and that my relative morality isn't the same as His for His predestined plan.

So, what I'm hearing is that what WE would see as abhorent/immoral/repulsive would have to be a form of "short sightedness" and that something else must be the case. What if, after you die, you discover that there wasn't anything deeper than merely "god wanted a few people to worship him and didn't care about all the rest" . . . [or that which you now see as "abhorent"]? At that point, you would still be "chosen", . . . so would that mean that you would have to [then] be okay with what will happen to "the un-chosen"?

It's an interesting thing to contemplate, . . . for sure.
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06-03-2014, 11:37 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(06-03-2014 11:11 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(06-03-2014 10:47 AM)TwoCultSurvivor Wrote:  Do you not experience some level of cognitive dissonance reading the reasoned arguments against predestination while continuing to hold the belief?

I'm sure what a "reasoned argument" is. Predestination is pretty solid.

It is also unspeakably cruel. You have to see that. How do you just turn that off?
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