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06-03-2014, 11:40 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(06-03-2014 11:15 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(06-03-2014 11:03 AM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  Thank you for taking my question seriously (as you always do). It just suddenly occurred to me that should I be in your shoes - that would trouble me greatly.
That being said - I'm convinced that any/all belief systems or faiths come with their fair share of sacrifices. And I'm also convinced that since there's no absolute in those sacrifices that the infinite god seeking worship denies us truth.
You should not have to live blindly and I don't understand a god who demands that of you.

or............

I'll just fall back on my own stand-by:
We are mere mortals and human and cannot possibly fathom something as huge as a god. And we only seek to put something huge as a god into a box of words and examples we can mortally understand. Which is why god remains man-made and only some sort of invented faith can offer a true god.



You have faith.
I only have faith...........in You........... a mere mortal and good man.
I don't require a faith in something bigger than you.

Thank you for that.

In addition, I would also like to add, that I have never claimed that according to my morality that I didn't find some of God's actions abhorrent.

In my limited knowledge and relative morality, I do find some of the actions God has done and parts of His understood plan to be unjust. But, since I have faith that God is omniscient, I have to concede to His ultimate knowledge and that my relative morality isn't the same as His for His predestined plan.


Understood. Not shared... but understood.

It because you are willing to describe your faith-based life yet Not selling it is why you continue to have my respect. And confirms for me my own suspicions that a self-assured, reliable, fulfilling faith requires no validation nor salesmanship. It is as it should be - simply an individual matter lacking any other motivation than your own need for belief.


The honesty of that is impressive and refreshing.


(also............ if at any point I misrepresent you I do so unknowingly and going on my own interpretation and perceptions. Feel free to correct me should I do so wrongfully)

When I want your opinion I'll read your entrails.
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06-03-2014, 11:47 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(06-03-2014 11:11 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(06-03-2014 10:47 AM)TwoCultSurvivor Wrote:  Do you not experience some level of cognitive dissonance reading the reasoned arguments against predestination while continuing to hold the belief?

I'm sure what a "reasoned argument" is. Predestination is pretty solid.

KC, I know you have quoted lines from scripture supporting the predestination view, but to me they still had some interpretation and speculation in there in order to arrive at the "pre-elect" conclusion. You say predestination is pretty solid; however, it obviously is not solid or every biblical literalist would think the same way.

You also say that your goal would be to forever praise God in the afterlife. Why is this such a desired goal? Why the desire to accept the predestination view? They has to be some appeal to the ideas since there is no concrete evidence eternal praise in heaven, or predestination is real.

“Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up, must come down, down, down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it.”
— Dan Barker —
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06-03-2014, 12:48 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(06-03-2014 11:47 AM)Timber1025 Wrote:  KC, I know you have quoted lines from scripture supporting the predestination view, but to me they still had some interpretation and speculation in there in order to arrive at the "pre-elect" conclusion. You say predestination is pretty solid; however, it obviously is not solid or every biblical literalist would think the same way.

Most Christians did think this way until the concept of free will as a doctrine was introduced. It appealed to egocentric human nature and it became a staple of Christian teachings. For the most part, you will find Christians trying to justify free will and reconcile verses as opposed to those trying to justify election.

The doctrine of free will has become a stalwart indoctrination; therefore, people are unwilling to let go of the concept.

In the early days of Christianity, the concept of predestination was a common belief and never really questioned.

Quote:You also say that your goal would be to forever praise God in the afterlife. Why is this such a desired goal? Why the desire to accept the predestination view? They has to be some appeal to the ideas since there is no concrete evidence eternal praise in heaven, or predestination is real.

It's not my desired goal as of right now. The only thing I can figure is that when we become glorified and removed from our sin nature our desires will change. I have no desire to accept the predestination view; I simply have the desire to believe what is taught in scripture. Predestination/election is what is clearly taught throughout the OT and NT. The majority of Biblical scholars accept this point of view.

As far as concrete evidence, it depends on what you accept. In terms of scripture, there is concrete evidence for election.

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06-03-2014, 12:50 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(06-03-2014 11:29 AM)DeavonReye Wrote:  
(06-03-2014 11:15 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  In addition, I would also like to add, that I have never claimed that according to my morality that I didn't find some of God's actions abhorrent.

In my limited knowledge and relative morality, I do find some of the actions God has done and parts of His understood plan to be unjust. But, since I have faith that God is omniscient, I have to concede to His ultimate knowledge and that my relative morality isn't the same as His for His predestined plan.

So, what I'm hearing is that what WE would see as abhorent/immoral/repulsive would have to be a form of "short sightedness" and that something else must be the case. What if, after you die, you discover that there wasn't anything deeper than merely "god wanted a few people to worship him and didn't care about all the rest" . . . [or that which you now see as "abhorent"]? At that point, you would still be "chosen", . . . so would that mean that you would have to [then] be okay with what will happen to "the un-chosen"?

It's an interesting thing to contemplate, . . . for sure.

It would be irrelevant for me or impossible. In heaven, anything that causes grief or pain isn't present. So I would either be ignorant of the concept or it would be a no concern.

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06-03-2014, 12:52 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(06-03-2014 11:37 AM)TwoCultSurvivor Wrote:  
(06-03-2014 11:11 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  I'm sure what a "reasoned argument" is. Predestination is pretty solid.

It is also unspeakably cruel. You have to see that. How do you just turn that off?

Yes it is. it's also very arrogant.

But, this is according to my limited understanding and relative morality as I've stated before. If there is an acceptance of God as omniscient, the there is an acceptance that His plan is greater than what I feel.

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06-03-2014, 03:32 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(06-03-2014 12:52 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(06-03-2014 11:37 AM)TwoCultSurvivor Wrote:  It is also unspeakably cruel. You have to see that. How do you just turn that off?

Yes it is. it's also very arrogant.

But, this is according to my limited understanding and relative morality as I've stated before. If there is an acceptance of God as omniscient, the there is an acceptance that His plan is greater than what I feel.



I think it lies in that relinquish of personal power that's hard for many of us to wrap our heads around KC.

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06-03-2014, 03:58 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(06-03-2014 03:32 PM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  
(06-03-2014 12:52 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Yes it is. it's also very arrogant.

But, this is according to my limited understanding and relative morality as I've stated before. If there is an acceptance of God as omniscient, the there is an acceptance that His plan is greater than what I feel.



I think it lies in that relinquish of personal power that's hard for many of us to wrap our heads around KC.

For me, . . . it is too much to "HOPE that there must be something greater that only an omniscient god would understand". If there is a god that is that mysterious, . . . then I wouldn't know enough to come to a place of "worshipping it".
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06-03-2014, 04:04 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
Yes - the power over oneself, and the subjugation to a mysterious entity, have always been the sticking points as to why I never followed a faith based view at any point in my life. I have always felt, and been taught through experiences, that serving someone else and letting them have control over you was a big negative. This apparently went against my catholic and christian family environment.

Another question would be that even with so much remaining unknown about the afterlife (even as a believer), where does the assurance and confidence come from that enables you to be OK with full submission of yourself.

Thanks for being honest and to the point by the way.

“Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up, must come down, down, down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it.”
— Dan Barker —
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06-03-2014, 09:18 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(06-03-2014 09:52 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(05-03-2014 08:00 AM)DeavonReye Wrote:  I think the idea of "a predestination god" is a pretty evil one, really. The idea that ONLY a few are chosen and the vast majority "damned", . . . and "for his glory" . . . . is evidence of this. I wouldn't want to be "a chosen" in such a scenario. It would mean that I would HAVE to agree with that "vast majority being damned" [and depending on the denomination, how they will spend an eternity], . . . and I could never find peace, joy, or love in knowing so many are in that situation as a result OF "the god I was chosen by". Plus, . . . that "chosen" . . . .doesn't really explain what that "eternal chosen life" will be like. That isn't written. What would be an act that this type of god "would be glorified in"?

This is a common criticism of people who believe in election.

Why do you think it's so common? Consider

Because it is an insane, horrific, and ultimately dehumanizing concept? Yes.
Give it up, kc, and come join the rational and humane world.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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06-03-2014, 09:22 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(06-03-2014 11:15 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(06-03-2014 11:03 AM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  Thank you for taking my question seriously (as you always do). It just suddenly occurred to me that should I be in your shoes - that would trouble me greatly.
That being said - I'm convinced that any/all belief systems or faiths come with their fair share of sacrifices. And I'm also convinced that since there's no absolute in those sacrifices that the infinite god seeking worship denies us truth.
You should not have to live blindly and I don't understand a god who demands that of you.

or............

I'll just fall back on my own stand-by:
We are mere mortals and human and cannot possibly fathom something as huge as a god. And we only seek to put something huge as a god into a box of words and examples we can mortally understand. Which is why god remains man-made and only some sort of invented faith can offer a true god.



You have faith.
I only have faith...........in You........... a mere mortal and good man.
I don't require a faith in something bigger than you.

Thank you for that.

In addition, I would also like to add, that I have never claimed that according to my morality that I didn't find some of God's actions abhorrent.

In my limited knowledge and relative morality, I do find some of the actions God has done and parts of His understood plan to be unjust. But, since I have faith that God is omniscient, I have to concede to His ultimate knowledge and that my relative morality isn't the same as His for His predestined plan.

Except that your beliefs have no evidence to support them. You have built a 'justification' of predestination on quicksand.

So, no, predestination is not 'pretty solid'. It is irrational, even delusional.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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