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07-03-2014, 09:52 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
I agree; there's nothing "pretty solid" about predestination if it requires you to abandon your sense of humility, justice and morality. I don't think you have demonstrated, in the slightest, any arrogance, unfairness or immorality EXCEPT in your adherence to this despicable doctrine. That's why I framed my original question in terms of cognitive dissonance. You KNOW it's arrogant. You KNOW it does not meet your standard of justice and morality. Yet you willingly submit yourself to a God who is behaving immorally. Why?

Where is the evidence that He knows better? Where is the proof that his ways are higher than our ways, and his thoughts than our thoughts? If an earthly dictator were to do the same things, you would condemn him. You certainly would not swear your allegiance to him. So why is an earthly dictator evil if he exhibits the same attributes as the God you worship? Shouldn't he, by definition, be good?
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07-03-2014, 09:58 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(07-03-2014 09:52 AM)TwoCultSurvivor Wrote:  I agree; there's nothing "pretty solid" about predestination if it requires you to abandon your sense of humility, justice and morality. I don't think you have demonstrated, in the slightest, any arrogance, unfairness or immorality EXCEPT in your adherence to this despicable doctrine. That's why I framed my original question in terms of cognitive dissonance. You KNOW it's arrogant. You KNOW it does not meet your standard of justice and morality. Yet you willingly submit yourself to a God who is behaving immorally. Why?

Where is the evidence that He knows better? Where is the proof that his ways are higher than our ways, and his thoughts than our thoughts? If an earthly dictator were to do the same things, you would condemn him. You certainly would not swear your allegiance to him. So why is an earthly dictator evil if he exhibits the same attributes as the God you worship? Shouldn't he, by definition, be good?

I say "pretty solid" in terms of scripture and reconciliation of God, His actions, and actions of humans and the world.

My acceptance that God's ways are greater than my understanding are based on my faith that He is O3. I base this understanding on what is taught in scripture and on my own anecdotal experiences which have caused me to accept this doctrine.

I actually see my personal discontent with some of justice aspects of the doctrine yet adhering to the doctrine as personal proof that I don't have a choice in believing.

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07-03-2014, 10:03 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
I'm sure you'll understand if I say that I respect you, but not your position on this matter.

I see no reason to believe that God is O3. He hasn't demonstrated that He is O1. or even that He is.

And yet, I find YOU exceedingly affable. Go figure. Smile
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07-03-2014, 10:08 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(06-03-2014 04:04 PM)Timber1025 Wrote:  Yes - the power over oneself, and the subjugation to a mysterious entity, have always been the sticking points as to why I never followed a faith based view at any point in my life. I have always felt, and been taught through experiences, that serving someone else and letting them have control over you was a big negative. This apparently went against my catholic and christian family environment.

Another question would be that even with so much remaining unknown about the afterlife (even as a believer), where does the assurance and confidence come from that enables you to be OK with full submission of yourself.

Thanks for being honest and to the point by the way.

You are very welcome. I've always striven to be clear and concise and answer questions directly because of the dodgy nature of a lot of Christians.

My assurance comes from my personal experience (or what I call personal evidence - Chas disagrees).

My beliefs were changed instantaneously and the only answer I found as to why I changed my beliefs with no actions of my own was answered in the Doctrine of Election.

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07-03-2014, 10:11 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(07-03-2014 10:03 AM)TwoCultSurvivor Wrote:  I'm sure you'll understand if I say that I respect you, but not your position on this matter.

I see no reason to believe that God is O3. He hasn't demonstrated that He is O1. or even that He is.

And yet, I find YOU exceedingly affable. Go figure. Smile

I very much understand why you wouldn't. Part of it is because it doesn't make logical sense and that O3 is rationally impossible in the realm that we live in.

I try to be affable to everyone... because at the end of the day... we're all people just trying to live. No reason to let differing opinions make you a dick to others. That's just not right in my opinion.

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07-03-2014, 11:41 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(07-03-2014 09:58 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(07-03-2014 09:52 AM)TwoCultSurvivor Wrote:  I agree; there's nothing "pretty solid" about predestination if it requires you to abandon your sense of humility, justice and morality. I don't think you have demonstrated, in the slightest, any arrogance, unfairness or immorality EXCEPT in your adherence to this despicable doctrine. That's why I framed my original question in terms of cognitive dissonance. You KNOW it's arrogant. You KNOW it does not meet your standard of justice and morality. Yet you willingly submit yourself to a God who is behaving immorally. Why?

Where is the evidence that He knows better? Where is the proof that his ways are higher than our ways, and his thoughts than our thoughts? If an earthly dictator were to do the same things, you would condemn him. You certainly would not swear your allegiance to him. So why is an earthly dictator evil if he exhibits the same attributes as the God you worship? Shouldn't he, by definition, be good?

I say "pretty solid" in terms of scripture and reconciliation of God, His actions, and actions of humans and the world.

My acceptance that God's ways are greater than my understanding are based on my faith that He is O3. I base this understanding on what is taught in scripture and on my own anecdotal experiences which have caused me to accept this doctrine.

I actually see my personal discontent with some of justice aspects of the doctrine yet adhering to the doctrine as personal proof that I don't have a choice in believing.


erm..........but........but...erm..............

yeah........... I just don't know.
Unsure

When I want your opinion I'll read your entrails.
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07-03-2014, 09:24 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(07-03-2014 09:58 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  I actually see my personal discontent with some of justice aspects of the doctrine yet adhering to the doctrine as personal proof that I don't have a choice in believing.

As a former Calvinist I understand your perspective. I could rationalize my cognitive dissonance on issues like God's justice by convincing myself that I was elect and God granted me faith believe in spite of the increasingly overwhelming evidence against biblical claims.

As you know Calvinism can get very dark. Have you read Pink's Sovereignty of God? Like I said, dark. Calvinism is often a path to unbelief, but maybe not in your case.
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08-03-2014, 12:03 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
What is the meaning of

Matthew 7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

Sapere aude
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08-03-2014, 02:55 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(06-03-2014 10:32 AM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  In all fairness, KC, how does a 'chosen one' resign themselves to the fact that they might at any moment be talking to someone 'un-chosen'? Don't you have guilt over that? Like me.......... I am likely un-chosen in your belief system. Don't you feel a pang of guilt knowing that I will not enjoy the benefits that you will?
How do you wrap your head around those of us who remain un-chosen??
...

(07-03-2014 09:24 PM)freetoreason Wrote:  As a former Calvinist I understand your perspective. I could rationalize my cognitive dissonance on issues like God's justice by convincing myself that I was elect
...

I suppose that there are potentially 4 statuses:
Chosen Believer
Un-chosen Believer
Chosen Unbeliever
Un-chosen Unbeliever

Given that there is no way of knowing who is who until after death, this raises some interesting questions:

Why would an Un-chosen Believer accept their status?
Does an Un-chosen Believer behave like low-caste Indians and just accept their fate hoping for a better status next time (re-incarnation)?
What would be the point of living when one believes that they are an Un-chosen Believer ?
Do Chosen Believers believe that Un-chosen Unbelievers are simply in denial or are rejecting the gods because they hate them?

It is very easy to see why a Chosen Believer would choose to believe that they are chosen.
It probably stems from a feeling of rejection or a lack of affection as a child and the need for a more protecting father figure. It is simply a manifestation of some deep insecurity and wish fantasy.

Of course, there is no guarantee that after death (and the necessary reprogramming to 'happy to endlessly praise + no guilt' - mode) that their gods will even notice them, let alone offer them the affection they so desperately seek.

The resulting cognitive dissonance thus has to be explained away and compartmentalised.

For myself, I believe that I am a Chosen Unbeliever. Why? Because that's what I choose to believe.

Prove me wrong!

The status with the least internal conflict, of course, is the Un-chosen Unbeliever...

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Which, I think, is a better explanation for this...
(28-01-2014 08:42 PM)Vosur Wrote:  ...
01. What do you think is the primary cause of the global increase in those who identify themselves as atheists, agnostics and non-religious?

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09-03-2014, 03:35 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
What does
Quote:Stark's (KC's) Law:
If a known religious person is involved
in an online discussion with the
irreligious; no matter the topic, as an
online discussion grows longer, the
probability of the discussion being
directed/redirected towards the religious
person's set of beliefs approaches 1.
mean?
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