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20-12-2011, 08:28 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(20-12-2011 08:22 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(19-12-2011 05:47 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(19-12-2011 05:39 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  
(19-12-2011 05:38 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(19-12-2011 04:41 PM)Malleus Wrote:  I have to say that you are a bit scary.

So he's evil and utterly horrible and unfair... but he loves you. Right?

But he's evil and utterly horrible and unfair only by human standards, not by, um, some standard, er, uhh .....

To be precise, he's only evil and utterly horrible and unfair only by human standards towards the non-elect. Tongue

Oh, OK - that makes it just peachy, doesn't it.

lol now you're getting it.

I do believe that I got it from the beginning.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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24-12-2011, 02:05 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
Hmmm, Lucradis... could this become a sticky?

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24-12-2011, 02:20 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
If someone already asked this im sorry but. . . as a calvinist does it bother you that you think people are going to hell.
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24-12-2011, 02:32 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(24-12-2011 02:20 AM)Kempy Wrote:  If someone already asked this im sorry but. . . as a calvinist does it bother you that you think people are going to hell.

A previous statement:

All of you are great people, and I'm saddened at the thought of anyone - any human - perishing for eternity. The hope that God may have chosen you gives me solace. I truly enjoy this place and you fine people.

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24-12-2011, 04:55 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
In the event that a horrible tragedy were to befall you such as a loss of limb does this put into question your being elect? the chosen people are supposed to be spared the cruel misfortunes of life. Would you expect to see a crippling injury as a sign that you are not chosen? I can't really see a handicapped person being a calvinist as you can't really suggest you got the better end of the deal.

I'm not a non believer, I believe in the possibility of anything. I just don't let the actuality of something be determined by a 3rd party.
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24-12-2011, 09:26 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(24-12-2011 04:55 AM)Lilith Pride Wrote:  In the event that a horrible tragedy were to befall you such as a loss of limb does this put into question your being elect? the chosen people are supposed to be spared the cruel misfortunes of life. Would you expect to see a crippling injury as a sign that you are not chosen? I can't really see a handicapped person being a calvinist as you can't really suggest you got the better end of the deal.

I don't really think the idea of election means the chosen one will have much in this life. It's all about the after life. Ask a Jewish person. Chosen for them didn't mean a fine and dandy corporeal life. It's all about waiting for the Sequel. In my day, I knew plenty of handicap folks that revel in thoughts of the afterlife because it's the only way they see to making today worth living for in their cruel pain. Sure, God caused it, but God is going to give them 72 virgins and a barrel of Viagra so who cares if I'm missing a limb or two for today? If anything, those are the folks who buy into this crap. Look at KC. He's mentally handicapped, and he thinks being elect is a good thing.

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
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24-12-2011, 11:21 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(24-12-2011 02:32 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  All of you are great people, and I'm saddened at the thought of anyone - any human - perishing for eternity. The hope that God may have chosen you gives me solace. I truly enjoy this place and you fine people.

King... I swear.... I'm going to some how .. some way.. some where drag your ass down with me.. straight into the fire pit. If I go down.. your going down sucka! hehe

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -- Voltaire
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24-12-2011, 11:42 AM (This post was last modified: 24-12-2011 11:44 AM by kingschosen.)
RE: Ask a Theist!
(24-12-2011 04:55 AM)Lilith Pride Wrote:  In the event that a horrible tragedy were to befall you such as a loss of limb does this put into question your being elect? the chosen people are supposed to be spared the cruel misfortunes of life. Would you expect to see a crippling injury as a sign that you are not chosen? I can't really see a handicapped person being a calvinist as you can't really suggest you got the better end of the deal.

Lucradis asked me a question like that in the Calvinism thread. This is what I said:

(06-12-2011 10:47 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(06-12-2011 10:04 AM)lucradis Wrote:  Hey WTF? Now I have a question for kings. C'mon back for a sec please?

You believe in predestination yes? That god has everything planned out and it is his will and whoever is chosen now was already chosen and you feel as though you are chosen yes? (for the record, I believe that if there were a god and the bible were true that you'd be right)

My question is actually this (supposing that the above is true) your life is pretty nice right now I have to assume (mostly because you seem like a nice chap with a no offense intended, pretty good looking wife, way to go by the way) but would you still feel like you were elected if your life took a turn for the horrible? Like I mean real sucky side of life. Let's say, you lost your job, your wife left you for some reason, you got in a car accident and lost a leg and were put on prescription pain killers that you became addicted to and the government was refuting your claim to disability meanwhile your landlord was demanding rent (or mortgage depending on your situation) and due to the abuse of pain pills your insides are beginning to hurt. All the while you still attend church and pray to god asking why (rhetorically of course) and nothing gets better. Would you still feel chosen? If so why? If not why? And how come the chosen never seem to be poor homeless people? If those people say they are chosen the best they get is a padded cell.

Anyways, just curious.

Yes.

I have been laid off (a week before I found out I was going to have another kid). I have been addicted to drugs (painkillers).

My father is terminally ill with a rare disease that has completely destroyed his quality of life, yet he has more faith in God than anyone I've ever known. He is my earthly role model, and if he can respond to hardship like that then I can as well. As I've said before, I know that the God of the universe has plans for me according to His perfect will. I can't argue with that regardless of what happens. As the Bible says (Paul), I am convinced that there is nothing in this world that could rip me from Christ. He chose me from the beginning of time until the end of eternity (sic).


(24-12-2011 11:21 AM)ddrew Wrote:  
(24-12-2011 02:32 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  All of you are great people, and I'm saddened at the thought of anyone - any human - perishing for eternity. The hope that God may have chosen you gives me solace. I truly enjoy this place and you fine people.

King... I swear.... I'm going to some how .. some way.. some where drag your ass down with me.. straight into the fire pit. If I go down.. your going down sucka! hehe

lol

One of these days...

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24-12-2011, 02:02 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
Even the jews lead by the stories. Part of why Job was chastised by his peers was because things changed. In the notion that there are elect it stands to reason that they are spared. The idea of calvinism brings this into question. You should be perfectly aware Erxomai, that when a tragedy befalls someone there are plenty of christians who wonder what made it happen. I can't see calvinism as a theology practiced by the poor.

I kinda thought someone would've asked before king, but I actually feel that my example is a bit more severe. For instance, in a highly self-serving theology the pains of others cannot be seen as your punishment. Just as you watch as we suffer and have no say in it so would you do the same for those around you. If it's going to happen its going to happen. Being laid off sucks, but it can change. Losing a limb is permanent. Paralysis is permanent. If you feel they're the same then don't worry about it.

I know that suffering is expected within judaism, but in general the religion follows the idea that those who live the right life live better. That all of the hardships that befall them lead to a more full life. And these ideas are grounded within mortality. While Judaism for a long period was a religion that preached unchanging positions it still promised a more full life to the herdsman who walked with god. The religion is not without it's earthly rewards. And it definitely sees the fate of those opposed to god as much worse.

I'm not a non believer, I believe in the possibility of anything. I just don't let the actuality of something be determined by a 3rd party.
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24-12-2011, 02:42 PM (This post was last modified: 24-12-2011 02:45 PM by Erxomai.)
RE: Ask a Theist!
(24-12-2011 02:02 PM)Lilith Pride Wrote:  Even the jews lead by the stories. Part of why Job was chastised by his peers was because things changed. In the notion that there are elect it stands to reason that they are spared. The idea of calvinism brings this into question. You should be perfectly aware Erxomai, that when a tragedy befalls someone there are plenty of christians who wonder what made it happen. I can't see calvinism as a theology practiced by the poor.

I kinda thought someone would've asked before king, but I actually feel that my example is a bit more severe. For instance, in a highly self-serving theology the pains of others cannot be seen as your punishment. Just as you watch as we suffer and have no say in it so would you do the same for those around you. If it's going to happen its going to happen. Being laid off sucks, but it can change. Losing a limb is permanent. Paralysis is permanent. If you feel they're the same then don't worry about it.

I know that suffering is expected within judaism, but in general the religion follows the idea that those who live the right life live better. That all of the hardships that befall them lead to a more full life. And these ideas are grounded within mortality. While Judaism for a long period was a religion that preached unchanging positions it still promised a more full life to the herdsman who walked with god. The religion is not without it's earthly rewards. And it definitely sees the fate of those opposed to god as much worse.

You make excellent points and I won't refute them, only share that I made my comments based on my personal bias of being a conservative Christian of 40+ years. I wasn't as strong a Calvinist as our young friend is, but I certainly believed that the Bible knew what it was talking about when it says rain falls upon the just and the unjust alike, and that everything happens either because God intends it to happen for "character building" or it's a result of the Curse of Original Sin, so it's too bad you got wiped out in a tsunami, but Creation is a Fallen place.

The way my brand of Christian deals with all the tragedy of life is to compartmentalize it into faith that The Sequel is coming and all the pain and dismemberment will be rectified. It will be sad that many will reject God's salvation, but once they get to heaven, all tears and sadness will be washed away as the True Believers sit around the throne worshiping God for eternity. I never thought that my status as one of The Elect entitled me to anything special here on earth, except Faith and Hope and Community.


PS, and yes, it still makes me feel like crap that I spoon fed this pablum to people who were paralyzed, dying of cancer, amputees, widows, families who had loved ones murdered, child abuse victims, ad nauseaum. Sad

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
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