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27-03-2014, 10:17 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(26-03-2014 08:12 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Not meaning to be argumentative but...

If the point to heaven is to praise god and you don't know what purpose praising fulfills then does that mean that you don't know what the point/purpose of heaven is?

Praising is an activity it isn't a purpose.
Like running is an activity, its purpose it to get fit, or achieve a goal or to get somewhere quicker than walking.
I could suggest that praising someone serves a purpose of boosting their confidence or encouraging them to do something that they might otherwise be lacking motivation on.
Does god lack confidence and/or motivation?

Well, our entire existence is based on giving the Son a purpose, and in that, God designed His elect to give Him praise when they enter eternity

Quote:With regards to 3) if you have no choice then doesn't that invalidate the concept of praise? especially if the recipient of the praise knows that you have no choice.

For us, yeah... but since God is omniscient, you could say that about everything that has ever happened or will happen. It's the plan that God set up... and He likes it like that. I can't answer why He set things up the way they are as I'm not privy to that information.

(27-03-2014 09:58 AM)rampant.a.i. Wrote:  Do you see any conflict between the As Above, So Below interpretation of Heaven (the Kingdom of God) as depicted in the bible, in that it mirrored the political and social structure of the time, with an eternal being as monarch, with a serfs, knights, guards, and the chosen few as the peasants in his kingdom?

I'm rusty on this as I haven't looked at or even thought about this in over 2 years. Could you go in more detail, please?

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27-03-2014, 11:38 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(27-03-2014 10:17 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  Well, our entire existence is based on giving the Son a purpose, and in that, God designed His elect to give Him praise when they enter eternity
The Son has a purpose or "we" have a purpose?
Who is his "elect" is that us or his son?

Are you a father KC?
I am and I would be disappointed if my children felt it their purpose to praise me.
I love my kids, I want them to become independent and live a fulfilling live (however they see fulfilling to be). That's what love is, its wanting the best for them rather than seeing their lives as being for the sole purpose of praising yourself.
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27-03-2014, 02:35 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
KC - Are you afraid that if you mentally explore the possibility that god doesn't exist that you might then loose your faith, stop believing and then lose your place in heaven?
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27-03-2014, 02:56 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(27-03-2014 02:35 PM)Stevil Wrote:  KC - Are you afraid that if you mentally explore the possibility that god doesn't exist that you might then loose your faith, stop believing and then lose your place in heaven?

I don't think that would be a concern for KC. Consider

To KC, everything has been pre-arranged by the paradoxical god; conveniently enough, he believes himself to be 'elect', as in prior to even the beginning of time itself, gawd chose KC for heaven. If Future KC stops believing, I suspect that wont mean much to Now KC 'cause he can be 'reasonably' assured that he'd still have his place in ad gods throne praising him endlessly, due to the whole predestination thing.

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27-03-2014, 03:56 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
Do Calvinists make a big deal out of confession, redemption, and contrition?
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27-03-2014, 04:06 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(27-03-2014 02:56 PM)Free Thought Wrote:  I don't think that would be a concern for KC. Consider

To KC, everything has been pre-arranged by the paradoxical god; conveniently enough, he believes himself to be 'elect', as in prior to even the beginning of time itself, gawd chose KC for heaven. If Future KC stops believing, I suspect that wont mean much to Now KC 'cause he can be 'reasonably' assured that he'd still have his place in ad gods throne praising him endlessly, due to the whole predestination thing.
Wouldn't KC acknowledge that he might be wrong regarding his belief that he is predestined to be in heaven?
That if he lost his belief in god that this loss of belief was predestined (known by god, but not known by KC) and thus his not being in heaven was also predestined.
I'm sure KC accepts that people are not perfect and are prone to being wrong.
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27-03-2014, 07:20 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
Not to speak for the chosen one, but as a former Calvinist, if you stop believing and never return to faith you were never truly elect to begin with. Because people come to Calvinism after much study, and as such it attracts the intellectually curious, it is often a path to unbelief.

Yes, Calvinists make an enormous deal about repentance. They are in the Puritan tradition where you had book titles like the exceeding sinfulness of sin. From their Heidelberg Catechism, really messed up stuff to tell your kids

Question 5: Can you live up to all this perfectly?
Answer: No.[1] I have a natural tendency to hate God and my neighbor.[2]

Question 6: Did God create man so wicked and perverse?
Answer: No. God created man good[1] and in his own image,[2] that is, in true righteousness and holiness,[3] so that he might truly know God his creator,[4] love him with all his heart, and live with him in eternal happiness for his praise and glory.[5]

Question 7: Then where does man's corrupt nature come from?
Answer: From the fall and disobedience of our first parents, Adam and Eve, in Paradise.[1] This fall has so poisoned our nature[2] that we are born sinners-corrupt from conception on.[3]

Question 8: But are we so corrupt that we are totally unable to do any good and inclined toward all evil?
Answer: Yes,[1] unless we are born again, by the Spirit of God.[2]
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27-03-2014, 07:35 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
This dark theology of man's total depravity and god's apparently arbitrary election was much more widespread at our nation's founding than it is today, and so incensed Jefferson and Paine to write:

Jefferson
'His [Calvin's] religion was demonism. If ever man worshiped a false God, he did. The being described in his five points is ... a demon of malignant spirit. It would be more pardonable to believe in no God at all, than to blaspheme him by the atrocious attributes of Calvin.'

Paine
'The absurd and impious doctrine of predestination, a doctrine destructive of morals, would never have been thought of had it not been for some stupid passages in the Bible, which priestcraft at first, and ignorance since, have imposed upon mankind as revelation.'

'Paul argues like an unfeeling idiot, when he compares man to clay on a potter's wheel, or to vessels made therefrom: and with respect to God, it is an offense to His attributes of justice, goodness, and wisdom, to suppose that He would treat the choicest work of creation like inanimate and insensible clay. If Paul believed that God made man after His own image, he dishonors it by making that image and a brickbat to be alike.'

Full letter to Calvinist clergy here http://www.deism.com/paine_essay_predest...vinism.htm
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27-03-2014, 11:47 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(27-03-2014 04:06 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(27-03-2014 02:56 PM)Free Thought Wrote:  I don't think that would be a concern for KC. Consider

To KC, everything has been pre-arranged by the paradoxical god; conveniently enough, he believes himself to be 'elect', as in prior to even the beginning of time itself, gawd chose KC for heaven. If Future KC stops believing, I suspect that wont mean much to Now KC 'cause he can be 'reasonably' assured that he'd still have his place in ad gods throne praising him endlessly, due to the whole predestination thing.

Wouldn't KC acknowledge that he might be wrong regarding his belief that he is predestined to be in heaven?
That if he lost his belief in god that this loss of belief was predestined (known by god, but not known by KC) and thus his not being in heaven was also predestined.
I'm sure KC accepts that people are not perfect and are prone to being wrong.

Assuming that I am getting the gist of your question... KC's heaven works in a way a little different than usual.

KC and his other Calvinists bretheren believe that only the 'elect' go to heaven. That doesn't necessarily mean only Calvinists. As KC once explained, being 'elect' isn't faith-dependant. You can be an atheist and an 'elect'. Elect status is more of something that god just decided to pull out of his all-powerful arse and randomly distributed than a reward for having the 'right' faith.
If I remember correctly, he has admitted several times that he could well be wrong about his elect status, or that of his wife and kid(s?), but he's still going to believe he is.

The people closely associated with the namesake of female canines are suffering from a nondescript form of lunacy.
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28-03-2014, 12:14 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(27-03-2014 11:47 PM)Free Thought Wrote:  Assuming that I am getting the gist of your question... KC's heaven works in a way a little different than usual.

KC and his other Calvinists bretheren believe that only the 'elect' go to heaven. That doesn't necessarily mean only Calvinists. As KC once explained, being 'elect' isn't faith-dependant. You can be an atheist and an 'elect'. Elect status is more of something that god just decided to pull out of his all-powerful arse and randomly distributed than a reward for having the 'right' faith.
If I remember correctly, he has admitted several times that he could well be wrong about his elect status, or that of his wife and kid(s?), but he's still going to believe he is.
Oh that's random.

I made quite an assumption.

It seems to me to be irrelevant whether people believe they are the "elect" or not. It's just more of a wait and see thing, like a person believing they have the winning lotto ticket.
Is KC a gambling man?

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Know when ta fold 'em
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