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22-04-2014, 10:30 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(22-04-2014 08:10 AM)John Wrote:  I mean to ask, why is it that you felt "led to read and study the Bible" and not something else? Was it somehow obvious, and if so, why? And for that matter, what made you think that your experience had anything to do with anything that is found in the Bible in the first place? (Not sure you think it had but I'll ask anyway)

To the extent that I'm able to picture myself in your shoes, it doesn't seem to follow from the experience (given my background knowledge) that it had some connection with the Bible. So I'm wondering if there's something missing here.

I addressed this a couple of times... somewhere in this thread... bleh... this thing is just too huge.

Anyway, the Bible and Christianity wasn't the first thing I turned to after my conversation. I skipped the months that I studied religions and philosophies to try and figure out what was happening to me.

I studied and read the holy books of all the major religions and some of the minor ones (Satanism included). When my studies led me to the book of Romans and Ephesians in the Bible, I suddenly realized what had happened because of the concept of predestination.

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22-04-2014, 10:56 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(22-04-2014 10:30 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  When my studies led me to the book of Romans and Ephesians in the Bible, I suddenly realized what had happened because of the concept of predestination.

Would it be fair to say, that if it weren't for Romans and/or Ephesians, you wouldn't necessarily consider yourself a Christian at the moment? In other words, can you think of something else besides those that (probably) would have turned you into a Christian in hindsight.

And just out of interest, what was the first thing you turned to after your conversation if not the Bible/Christianity? Was there a specific reason for you to turn first to whatever you turned first to? Or was it more or less coincidental?

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22-04-2014, 01:22 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(22-04-2014 10:30 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(22-04-2014 08:10 AM)John Wrote:  I mean to ask, why is it that you felt "led to read and study the Bible" and not something else? Was it somehow obvious, and if so, why? And for that matter, what made you think that your experience had anything to do with anything that is found in the Bible in the first place? (Not sure you think it had but I'll ask anyway)

To the extent that I'm able to picture myself in your shoes, it doesn't seem to follow from the experience (given my background knowledge) that it had some connection with the Bible. So I'm wondering if there's something missing here.

I addressed this a couple of times... somewhere in this thread... bleh... this thing is just too huge.

Anyway, the Bible and Christianity wasn't the first thing I turned to after my conversation. I skipped the months that I studied religions and philosophies to try and figure out what was happening to me.

I studied and read the holy books of all the major religions and some of the minor ones (Satanism included). When my studies led me to the book of Romans and Ephesians in the Bible, I suddenly realized what had happened because of the concept of predestination.

What you should have read about were psychology and neuroscience. That would be the rational thing to do. Drinking Beverage

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22-04-2014, 01:27 PM (This post was last modified: 22-04-2014 02:52 PM by LadyJane.)
RE: Ask a Theist!
Yup.

This reminds me of astronomy. Some famous past astronomers missed the answers because the void was already filled with, 'god made it so'. Just because an answer is found doesn't make it the truth.
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22-04-2014, 01:34 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(22-04-2014 01:22 PM)Chas Wrote:  What you should have read about were psychology and neuroscience. That would be the rational thing to do. Drinking Beverage

We've already been over this, Chas. I did. That was the first thing I considered. The two options were mental or physical. I was pretty use I was mentally stable and didn't have a mental issue, and I was physically clean; already having an MRI, CT, and X-ray on my brain.

That's when I turned to the different religions and philosophies for an answer.

And John, to answer your question, I don't recall which one I started with but it wasn't Christianity or the Bible. That's the one I ended on.

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22-04-2014, 02:02 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(22-04-2014 01:34 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(22-04-2014 01:22 PM)Chas Wrote:  What you should have read about were psychology and neuroscience. That would be the rational thing to do. Drinking Beverage

We've already been over this, Chas. I did. That was the first thing I considered. The two options were mental or physical. I was pretty use I was mentally stable and didn't have a mental issue, and I was physically clean; already having an MRI, CT, and X-ray on my brain.

That's when I turned to the different religions and philosophies for an answer.

And John, to answer your question, I don't recall which one I started with but it wasn't Christianity or the Bible. That's the one I ended on.

You have still left out psychology and the normal workings of the human mind.

That you latch on to the ridiculous answer makes you irrational.

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22-04-2014, 02:14 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(22-04-2014 01:34 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  And John, to answer your question, I don't recall which one I started with but it wasn't Christianity or the Bible. That's the one I ended on.

Ok, 'twas just a curiosity, since I take it that your cultural milieu is and has been predominantly Christian I found it odd that Christianity wasn't your first target of investigation after a religious experience. Wanna have a take on the first part of the post? It was rather the main question, the rest was really just an afterthought. And just to clarify, I'm not trying to corner you with any gotcha arguments or anything like that, I'm just trying to flesh out the connection between the experience you had and Christianity, since it's not at all obvious nor straightforward to me. Consider

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22-04-2014, 02:57 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(22-04-2014 01:34 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(22-04-2014 01:22 PM)Chas Wrote:  What you should have read about were psychology and neuroscience. That would be the rational thing to do. Drinking Beverage

We've already been over this, Chas. I did. That was the first thing I considered. The two options were mental or physical. I was pretty use I was mentally stable and didn't have a mental issue, and I was physically clean; already having an MRI, CT, and X-ray on my brain.

That's when I turned to the different religions and philosophies for an answer.

And John, to answer your question, I don't recall which one I started with but it wasn't Christianity or the Bible. That's the one I ended on.

You can still be physically healthy and 'mentally strong' and have these things happen. So many people here have explained that they've felt the same way but don't feel the need to MAKE the answer 'it's God'. I get these feelings and have done spontaneous things, too. It's not abnormal, but others don't need to irrationally explain it through a cave-man book and invisible super-lord. In fact, it is physically explainable with hard tangible evidence.
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22-04-2014, 03:02 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(22-04-2014 07:42 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(21-04-2014 02:24 PM)avalon Wrote:  http://biblesuite.com/greek/4151.htm :
pneúma – properly, spirit (Spirit), wind, or breath.
[Any of the above renderings (spirit-Spirit, wind, breath) of 4151 (pneúma) is always theoretically possible (spirit, Spirit, wind, breath). But when the attributive adjective ("holy") is used, it always refers to the Holy Spirit. "Spirit" ("spirit") is by far the most common translation (application) of 4151 (pneúma).

The Hebrew counterpart (rûach) has the same range of meaning as 4151 (pneúma), i.e. it likewise can refer to spirit/Spirit, wind, or breath.]


(Ezek 37:9 [NET])
He said to me, “Prophesy to the breath, – prophesy, son of man – and say to the breath: ‘This is what the sovereign LORD says: Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe on these corpses so that they may live.’”


(Ezek 37:9 [SLT])
And he will say to me, prophesy to the spirit, prophesy, son of man, and say to the spirit, thus said the Lord Jehovah: Come from the four winds, O wind and blow upon these slain, and they shall live.


(Ezek 37:9 [KJV])
Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.



So, what's the connection between wind, breath, and spirit? When you say "spirit" what do you mean?

Okay... I see what you're saying... and I kind of get what you're asking. But this all seems very entomological and not much to do with theology and/or God.

I guess, to me, it seems like you're trying to make an issue out of something where there is no issue.

I guess I'm just failing to see what you're seeing. I apologize. If you don't mind, please keep elaborating until it "clicks" with me. If you're too frustrated, I understand... again, sorry.

Hi kc,
Let me give you an analogy: if I asked you what 'gay' means, you would tell me 'homosexual' which is the current meaning of the word. But the other day I was reading a story from the 1920's that used the word "gay". I know that back then 'gay' did not mean 'homosexual', so it would be wrong to assume the writer meant 'homosexual' in a 1920's story. I must define the word for what it meant, WHEN IT WAS WRITTEN.
When it comes to the word 'spirit' nearly every Christian tries to force the modern meaning of the word (an immaterial person?) onto the ancient text of the bible. The modern meaning came into use around 1300 AD. prior to that 'spirit' was associated with wind and breath. So when the bible was written 'spirit' didn't mean an immaterial person. One word was used for spirit, wind, and breath.
So, what did the bible authors mean by 'spirit'? To understand that let's look at the other two words (wind and breath). What do they have in common? They are both air in motion. What was 'air' to an ancient author? Without our current knowledge, those men thought air was something very mysterious, even supernatural. They knew it was invisible and it was essential to life. But what made it move? Why did a dead man not breathe, while a sleeping man did? What made the wind blow? This 'force' that moved this supernatural, essential thing called 'air' was called 'spirit'.
Here's some biblical references to prove this hypothesis:
The Lord God formed the man from the soil of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being. Gen 2:7

God caused a wind to blow over the earth and the waters receded. Gen. 8:1

the Lord took Elijah up to heaven in a windstorm 2 Kings 2:1

Suddenly a sound like a violent wind blowing came from heaven and filled the entire house where they were sitting. Acts 2:2

All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit, and they began to speak in other languages as the Spirit enabled them. Acts 2:4 (We speak with our breath. When you are filled with 'God breath' (Holy Spirit) it enables you to speak in other languages.)
"For it is not you speaking, but the Spirit (breath) of your Father speaking through you." Matt 10:20

"Now the earth was without shape and empty, and darkness was over the surface of the watery deep, but the Spirit of God (wind) was moving over the surface of the water." Gen 1:2

"The wind blows wherever it will, and you hear the sound it makes, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.” John 3:8

"Then Jesus, calling out with a loud voice, said, “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit! (the force that makes him breath)” And after he said this he breathed his last." Luke 23:46

"And after he said this, he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit." John 20:22


Nearly every religion claims this use of 'spirit' is metaphorical, that the authors didn't really think a 'spirit' was a supernatural force that moved air. I think it was literal and they did. Here's why:
1. there are four baptisms (baptize meaning 'to cover over with') listed in the NT: earth (Mark 10:38), water, fire, and spirit (Matt 3:11). There were thought to be 4 elements in nature back then: earth, fire, water, and air. Spirit baptism is the force behind moving air baptism (John 20:22).

If I'm right and the bible writers thought that air was some kind of supernatural substance and spirits made that substance move, then what would they think of birds that flew thru the air? They'd treat them differently and list them separate from other animals.

Genesis 1:20
God said, “Let the water swarm with swarms of living creatures and let birds fly above the earth across the expanse of the sky.”

Genesis 1:22
God blessed them and said, “Be fruitful and multiply and fill the water in the seas, and let the birds multiply on the earth.”

Genesis 1:26
Then God said, “Let us make humankind in our image, after our likeness, so they may rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move on the earth.”

Genesis 1:28
God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply! Fill the earth and subdue it! Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and every creature that moves on the ground.”

Genesis 15:10
So Abram took all these for him and then cut them in two and placed each half opposite the other, but he did not cut the birds in half.

Leviticus 7:26
And you must not eat any blood of the birds or the domesticated land animals in any of the places where you live.

Num. 11:31-33
Now a wind went out from the Lord and brought quail from the sea, and let them fall near the camp, about a day’s journey on this side, and about a day’s journey on the other side, all around the camp, and about three feet high on the surface of the ground. And the people stayed up all that day, all that night, and all the next day, and gathered the quail. The one who gathered the least gathered ten homers, and they spread them out for themselves all around the camp. But while the meat was still between their teeth, before they chewed it, the anger of the Lord burned against the people, and the Lord struck the people with a very great plague.
(Starving people eat the birds that God sent. What's wrong with that, unless birds are something special because they fly thru the air?)

And what was it that descended on Jesus when he was baptized? (Matthew 3:16)

CONCLUSION
The authors of the bible had one word for spirit, wind, and breath because, in their mind, they were related as air in motion. Air was thought to be a supernatural substance and spirit was a supernatural force that made it move. That is the meaning of spirit in the bible and it is wrong to force the modern meaning onto the ancient text. (Just as 'gay' didn't mean homosexual in 1920).

That fact that we now know what air is and what makes the wind blow and why a sleeping man breathes while a dead man doesn't, invalidates the biblical concept of 'spirit' as mere superstition. But any Christian who doesn't believe that 'spirit' makes the supernatural substance of air move just isn't biblical.

So, where do you stand on the meaning of 'spirit' in the bible? Do you agree with the 'Word of God' that spirit is a supernatural force that moves a supernatural substance?
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22-04-2014, 03:04 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
Some words for predestination:
Wave Collapse.

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