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11-12-2014, 11:04 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(11-12-2014 04:38 PM)docskeptic Wrote:  
(11-12-2014 04:00 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Hmmm, looking back, I think I know what you're saying.

But, yeah, evil has always existed because God created it (Isaiah 45:7).

Sorry for attacking You on multiple fronts. If God created evil, then it can't ALWAYS have existed. There was a time then when there was no evil. According to you, God created evil to give Christ something to do?
Doc

Also mind you, the evil that God created was not evil as we understand it, i.e. starving kiddies etc. He created that too, but it's not *evil*. Real evil is doing stuff contrary to God's will. Which cannot be done, since God controls everything.

KC... how do you not see this as completely nuts?

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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11-12-2014, 11:38 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(11-12-2014 03:58 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  It's certainly milder.
This is still *explicitly* the same guy who genocides nations at the drop of a priestly vestment though...

Quote:Would you, a human, be considered immoral for breaking a dolphin moral code that their society had created?

I mean... can you really be held to a dolphin's standard of morality?

Like maybe it's considered immoral to not beat the crap out of a porpoise when they see one (they actually do this by the way). As a human, if you step in and fight off the dolphins you've committed a grievous immoral act according to dolphin morality.

Are you immoral? Are you held to dolphin morality? Or are you held to your own society's morality?

In that, since God is autonomous, He can only be held to His own moral code, right?

That's why I said apples to oranges.

Dolphins do not involve themselves in human affairs, nor do they claim to be "good". If God is gonna claim to be good - a human standard - then judging him by a human standard is correct. If on the other hand he is *not* good by a human standard, but by some deity standard, then I still don't get the worship thing, nor do I get why he bothers to tell us he's good.

I think it's explicitly clear in the Bible OT that when God is referred to as good they mean God's pretty darn useful at getting us the chosen people out of a tight jam on occasion. He gives us loadsa cool shit like victories over our enemies and nice enemy slave girls. That's bronze age good, and it's a human standard.

He also fucks us up big time occasionally, and that's because we've been bronze age bad, we've neglected to kowtow to him. We've said shit like "I'm the big banana" and forgotten to add "God's a bigger banana".

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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16-12-2014, 04:43 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(11-12-2014 04:28 PM)docskeptic Wrote:  Jeremy,
You said that evil exists to give Christ a purpose. If Christ exists from eternity, then evil or the potential for evil must also exist from eternity to give Christ a purpose.



Sorry for attacking You on multiple fronts. If God created evil, then it can't ALWAYS have existed. There was a time then when there was no evil. According to you, God created evil to give Christ something to do?

Thanks for the questions, Doc.

Here's how I understand it:

Remember we're speaking in infinites here. God and Christ have always existed and so has the plan which means the intricacies of the plan are infinite and have always existed as well. So yes, God did create it, but it's also been there from the beginning* because it was a part of the plan that He constructed.

Does that make sense?

*always been there as there is no beginning in infinites



Quote:As a corollary, why would a deity require any purpose to exist?

It's a matter of perspective, I suppose. I guess it depends on which you put first. The purpose or the plan. In my view, the plan is infinite and has always existed; therefore, it created a purpose. This means that the purpose doesn't control the deity but it's an effect from the cause (the plan).

That being said, the purpose is also infinite because it has always existed because it's part of the plan; however, the purpose doesn't drive the plan, the plan drives the purpose.

I really don't feel like I'm being clear. Please let me know if I'm not.

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16-12-2014, 05:48 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
KC: Apologies if this has been asked before, it's a long-arse thread.

If there was an god that existed before the universe why would that be the only thing that existed before the universe? Couldn't a second god exist? (Diffentiated by quotes.)

Soulless mutants of muscle and intent. There are billions of us; hardy, smart and dangerous. Shaped by millions of years of death. We are the definitive alpha predator. We build monsters of fire and stone. We bottled the sun. We nailed our god to a stick.

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16-12-2014, 05:57 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(16-12-2014 04:43 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(11-12-2014 04:28 PM)docskeptic Wrote:  Jeremy,
You said that evil exists to give Christ a purpose. If Christ exists from eternity, then evil or the potential for evil must also exist from eternity to give Christ a purpose.



Sorry for attacking You on multiple fronts. If God created evil, then it can't ALWAYS have existed. There was a time then when there was no evil. According to you, God created evil to give Christ something to do?

Thanks for the questions, Doc.

Here's how I understand it:

Remember we're speaking in infinites here. God and Christ have always existed and so has the plan which means the intricacies of the plan are infinite and have always existed as well. So yes, God did create it, but it's also been there from the beginning* because it was a part of the plan that He constructed.

Does that make sense?

*always been there as there is no beginning in infinites

No. Drinking Beverage

Quote:

Quote:As a corollary, why would a deity require any purpose to exist?

It's a matter of perspective, I suppose. I guess it depends on which you put first. The purpose or the plan. In my view, the plan is infinite and has always existed; therefore, it created a purpose. This means that the purpose doesn't control the deity but it's an effect from the cause (the plan).

That being said, the purpose is also infinite because it has always existed because it's part of the plan; however, the purpose doesn't drive the plan, the plan drives the purpose.

I really don't feel like I'm being clear. Please let me know if I'm not.

You're not being clear.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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16-12-2014, 06:42 PM (This post was last modified: 16-12-2014 06:52 PM by Shadow Fox.)
RE: Ask a Theist!
You have probably answered this before but, What kinda theist are you? I haven't a clue.


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17-12-2014, 08:34 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(11-12-2014 11:04 PM)morondog Wrote:  Also mind you, the evil that God created was not evil as we understand it, i.e. starving kiddies etc. He created that too, but it's not *evil*. Real evil is doing stuff contrary to God's will. Which cannot be done, since God controls everything.

KC... how do you not see this as completely nuts?

Crappy things happening are a cause and an effect of evil. Evil exists... kiddies starve/etc.

Not sure where you got the "real" evil thing from. I've never said that.

Evil is evil only as we understand it through subjective morality.

God doesn't have our same morality. So, that evil, isn't anymore "evil" than good is "good". It's a simple part of God's plan.

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17-12-2014, 08:37 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(11-12-2014 11:38 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(11-12-2014 03:58 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  It's certainly milder.
This is still *explicitly* the same guy who genocides nations at the drop of a priestly vestment though...

Quote:Would you, a human, be considered immoral for breaking a dolphin moral code that their society had created?

I mean... can you really be held to a dolphin's standard of morality?

Like maybe it's considered immoral to not beat the crap out of a porpoise when they see one (they actually do this by the way). As a human, if you step in and fight off the dolphins you've committed a grievous immoral act according to dolphin morality.

Are you immoral? Are you held to dolphin morality? Or are you held to your own society's morality?

In that, since God is autonomous, He can only be held to His own moral code, right?

That's why I said apples to oranges.

Dolphins do not involve themselves in human affairs, nor do they claim to be "good". If God is gonna claim to be good - a human standard - then judging him by a human standard is correct. If on the other hand he is *not* good by a human standard, but by some deity standard, then I still don't get the worship thing, nor do I get why he bothers to tell us he's good.

I think it's explicitly clear in the Bible OT that when God is referred to as good they mean God's pretty darn useful at getting us the chosen people out of a tight jam on occasion. He gives us loadsa cool shit like victories over our enemies and nice enemy slave girls. That's bronze age good, and it's a human standard.

He also fucks us up big time occasionally, and that's because we've been bronze age bad, we've neglected to kowtow to him. We've said shit like "I'm the big banana" and forgotten to add "God's a bigger banana".

God also says He's a lot of other things; not just good.

It depends on the morality being portrayed at the time.

God is sovereign. That's why He's worshippable... not because He's "good".

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17-12-2014, 08:39 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(16-12-2014 05:48 PM)Stuffed_Assumption_Meringue Wrote:  KC: Apologies if this has been asked before, it's a long-arse thread.

If there was an god that existed before the universe why would that be the only thing that existed before the universe? Couldn't a second god exist? (Diffentiated by quotes.)

Are you asking me hypothetically or what I think?

Hypothetically, anything is possible. So, yeah... a second god could exist. Do I believe that? No... no, I don't.

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17-12-2014, 08:40 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(16-12-2014 06:42 PM)Shadow Fox Wrote:  You have probably answered this before but, What kinda theist are you? I haven't a clue.

Click here.

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