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17-12-2014, 08:43 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(16-12-2014 04:43 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(11-12-2014 04:28 PM)docskeptic Wrote:  Jeremy,
You said that evil exists to give Christ a purpose. If Christ exists from eternity, then evil or the potential for evil must also exist from eternity to give Christ a purpose.



Sorry for attacking You on multiple fronts. If God created evil, then it can't ALWAYS have existed. There was a time then when there was no evil. According to you, God created evil to give Christ something to do?

Thanks for the questions, Doc.

Here's how I understand it:

Remember we're speaking in infinites here. God and Christ have always existed and so has the plan which means the intricacies of the plan are infinite and have always existed as well. So yes, God did create it, but it's also been there from the beginning* because it was a part of the plan that He constructed.

Does that make sense?

*always been there as there is no beginning in infinites



Quote:As a corollary, why would a deity require any purpose to exist?

It's a matter of perspective, I suppose. I guess it depends on which you put first. The purpose or the plan. In my view, the plan is infinite and has always existed; therefore, it created a purpose. This means that the purpose doesn't control the deity but it's an effect from the cause (the plan).

That being said, the purpose is also infinite because it has always existed because it's part of the plan; however, the purpose doesn't drive the plan, the plan drives the purpose.

I really don't feel like I'm being clear. Please let me know if I'm not.

Not clear! Too many revolutions around the circular logic pool.

“Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up, must come down, down, down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it.”
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17-12-2014, 08:46 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
KC, is not the possibility for multiple gods clearly apparent in the scriptures? The mention of "gods" by the top dog "god" is quite common.

“Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up, must come down, down, down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it.”
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17-12-2014, 08:47 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(17-12-2014 08:46 AM)Timber1025 Wrote:  KC, is not the possibility for multiple gods clearly apparent in the scriptures? The mention of "gods" by the top dog "god" is quite common.

List the verses in question.

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17-12-2014, 09:08 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(17-12-2014 08:37 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  God is sovereign. That's why He's worshippable... not because He's "good".

... God is sovereign... Undecided God is not good by human standards... But yet God cares about being worshiped... to the extent that he writes mystic nonsense books and refuses to talk to sceptics.

Man, I dunno. I don't know *how* you manage to retain your faith...

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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17-12-2014, 09:48 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(17-12-2014 08:47 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(17-12-2014 08:46 AM)Timber1025 Wrote:  KC, is not the possibility for multiple gods clearly apparent in the scriptures? The mention of "gods" by the top dog "god" is quite common.

List the verses in question.

Exodus chapters 12, 18,20, and most of 23 just for a start. For NT examples, 1 corinthians 8:5 and acts 28:11.

Why is it that you need to ask what is in the bible when something is pointed out. The mention of other "gods" is found throughout the whole book. Playing ignorant is not a good method for honestly addressing a question about the scriptures you follow.

“Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up, must come down, down, down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it.”
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17-12-2014, 10:02 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(17-12-2014 09:48 AM)Timber1025 Wrote:  
(17-12-2014 08:47 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  List the verses in question.

Exodus chapters 12, 18,20, and most of 23 just for a start. For NT examples, 1 corinthians 8:5 and acts 28:11.

Okay, I'll look

Quote:Why is it that you need to ask what is in the bible when something is pointed out. The mention of other "gods" is found throughout the whole book. Playing ignorant is not a good method for honestly addressing a question about the scriptures you follow.

Never mind. I'm not discussing anything with you. Be a dick. That's fine. I just wanted to know what you were asking about specifically instead of something in general.

I don't see how there was anything wrong with me asking you to cite and pinpoint that which was going to be discussed.

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17-12-2014, 10:24 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(17-12-2014 09:48 AM)Timber1025 Wrote:  Exodus chapters 12, 18,20, and most of 23 just for a start. For NT examples, 1 corinthians 8:5 and acts 28:11.

Why is it that you need to ask what is in the bible when something is pointed out. The mention of other "gods" is found throughout the whole book. Playing ignorant is not a good method for honestly addressing a question about the scriptures you follow.

'kingschosen Wrote:Never mind. I'm not discussing anything with you. Be a dick. That's fine. I just wanted to know what you were asking about specifically instead of something in general.

I don't see how there was anything wrong with me asking you to cite and pinpoint that which was going to be discussed.

You gotta be fucking kidding me. An atheist treats you that respectfully with a valid point in a discourse and you call him a "dick" and say you won't discuss anything? That's incredible.
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17-12-2014, 12:31 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(17-12-2014 10:02 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(17-12-2014 09:48 AM)Timber1025 Wrote:  Exodus chapters 12, 18,20, and most of 23 just for a start. For NT examples, 1 corinthians 8:5 and acts 28:11.

Okay, I'll look

Quote:Why is it that you need to ask what is in the bible when something is pointed out. The mention of other "gods" is found throughout the whole book. Playing ignorant is not a good method for honestly addressing a question about the scriptures you follow.

Never mind. I'm not discussing anything with you. Be a dick. That's fine. I just wanted to know what you were asking about specifically instead of something in general.

I don't see how there was anything wrong with me asking you to cite and pinpoint that which was going to be discussed.

Sorry, but just tired of the same old game of asking a christian about something stated in the bible and receiving the "show me where it says that" response in return. It either means one of two things (and not implied to you personally): I don't know the bible all that well, or I need to twist the context to redefine the meaning according to my opinion/view.

Forgot I had to walk on eggshells with ya. I mean one of the commandments talks about worshiping other gods so I thought the references to multiple gods was kinda obvious - my bad I guess.

“Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up, must come down, down, down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it.”
— Dan Barker —
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17-12-2014, 12:45 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(17-12-2014 12:31 PM)Timber1025 Wrote:  
(17-12-2014 10:02 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  Okay, I'll look


Never mind. I'm not discussing anything with you. Be a dick. That's fine. I just wanted to know what you were asking about specifically instead of something in general.

I don't see how there was anything wrong with me asking you to cite and pinpoint that which was going to be discussed.

Sorry, but just tired of the same old game of asking a christian about something stated in the bible and receiving the "show me where it says that" response in return. It either means one of two things (and not implied to you personally): I don't know the bible all that well, or I need to twist the context to redefine the meaning according to my opinion/view.

Forgot I had to walk on eggshells with ya. I mean one of the commandments talks about worshiping other gods so I thought the references to multiple gods was kinda obvious - my bad I guess.

Psalms 82:1 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.

1 Kings 22:19 And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left.

2 Kings Chapter 3, Chemosh, the god of the Moabites, defeats the Israelites after a human sacrifice is made to him.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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17-12-2014, 12:49 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(17-12-2014 09:48 AM)Timber1025 Wrote:  Why is it that you need to ask what is in the bible when something is pointed out. The mention of other "gods" is found throughout the whole book. Playing ignorant is not a good method for honestly addressing a question about the scriptures you follow.

I recently got a similar reaction when I asked Q for a citation. He misunderstood what I was asking and thought I was looking for the bible verses and said he was "disappointed" that I would ask for this.

Why? If two people are to have a discussion, it's important that you make sure you are both discussing the same thing. Citing the verses ensures that you are doing so. It's not only a reasonable thing to ask, but a smart one. It saves needless going back and forth for pages discussing two different things under the mistaken assumption that it's the same thing.

I am not accountable to any God. I am accountable to myself - and not because I think I am God as some theists would try to assert - but because, no matter what actions I take, thoughts I think, or words I utter, I have to be able to live with myself.
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