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28-12-2011, 01:22 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(28-12-2011 01:12 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  The word used for the ark in the flood story is the same word that is used for the basket that Moses is placed in.

No, not according to your reference.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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28-12-2011, 01:25 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(28-12-2011 01:22 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(28-12-2011 01:12 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  The word used for the ark in the flood story is the same word that is used for the basket that Moses is placed in.

No, not according to your reference.

Wait what?

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28-12-2011, 01:33 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(28-12-2011 01:25 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(28-12-2011 01:22 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(28-12-2011 01:12 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  The word used for the ark in the flood story is the same word that is used for the basket that Moses is placed in.

No, not according to your reference.

Wait what?

Oops - my bad. I didn't follow the first reference correctly.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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28-12-2011, 06:20 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
Forget the box thing... Did you really just suggest that the Ark was shaped like a box therefore it is nearly impossible to capsize? There are some strange physics going on here. I'd like a non-creationist reference for this please.

But I digress, I will even grant that premise. Hope you don't get tired of my questions as they will be plenty.

Now, granted that Noah managed to get all of the animals aboard the ark (box?) and kept them afloat during massive waves...

How did Noah feed all of these animals? Creationists only account for spacing to house said animals, but they do not address the food supply issue. Delving even deeper into the food issue... what about the carnivores? Did Noah gather extra animals to feed these carnivores? Did he simply butcher animals before hand to store food for them?

What about resulting fecal matter? I will grant that him and his children were able to even remove the fecal matter. What I want to know is how they possibly even began to start that chore.

I'll even grant all of that actually and pose yet another question... how did these animals maintain exercise? But I'll even grant you this one.

How did the biodiversity come about? Kangaroos in Australia, Penguins in the arctic, Lions in Africa, Tigers in Asia, etc. How did they end up where they are starting from the crash site?

But again, let's grant you this premise as well. By the way, I'm under the assumption that at any one of these points, you're going to say "God helped". That is the premise I'm granting.

Are you familiar with birth defects due to incest? How did these "kinds" of animals manage to inbreed many times over without severe retardation occurring? Alright alright, God helped.

God helped Noah every step of the way.

My final questions then...

God is omniscient. God is all-powerful. God had the power to help Noah and these animals. God had the power to send a flood to cleanse the Earth. But let's revisit the premise that God is all-powerful. Does that not mean he could have simply skipped to the end-goal with a snap of his all-powerful fingers?

Why did God go through all of these steps to help Noah and cleanse the Earth causing needless suffering when he didn't have to?
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28-12-2011, 06:49 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
Yes, that's the Wille Coyote approach that god seems to enjoy. Technically he could catch the Road Runner in a few simple steps, but instead he places some bird feed on the road, puts a small net under it, ties it with a string that goes around the nearest mountain and then he lets it drop from a cliff with an 18 ton ACME weight. Then he draws the road to run into a cliff and he paints the hill as a tunnel.

Same with god. He miraculously seals an ark, he miraculously brings all the animals in the appropriate numbers, he miraculously keeps the whole thing afloat, he miraculously drowns everybody else, he miraculously keeps all the animals healthy, well-fed and shit-free for like forever, he miraculously drains all the water, he miraculously avoids genetic accidents from insufficient genetic material for re-population and he miraculously creates the rainbow to show that he'll never do it again, but this time was OK. Oh yes, he wants a bloody sacrifice too from the surviving animals.

Much easier than saying "I like Noah and he seems to like his family (the ones he will not curse when he's drunk). The rest of you die... ... now!"

Oh, no Hallucinations 4:11 says the 'gilded sheep should be stewed in rat blood' but Morons 5:16 contradicts it. (Chas)

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28-12-2011, 07:30 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(28-12-2011 06:49 PM)Malleus Wrote:  Yes, that's the Wille Coyote approach that god seems to enjoy. Technically he could catch the Road Runner in a few simple steps, but instead he places some bird feed on the road, puts a small net under it, ties it with a string that goes around the nearest mountain and then he lets it drop from a cliff with an 18 ton ACME weight. Then he draws the road to run into a cliff and he paints the hill as a tunnel.

Same with god. He miraculously seals an ark, he miraculously brings all the animals in the appropriate numbers, he miraculously keeps the whole thing afloat, he miraculously drowns everybody else, he miraculously keeps all the animals healthy, well-fed and shit-free for like forever, he miraculously drains all the water, he miraculously avoids genetic accidents from insufficient genetic material for re-population and he miraculously creates the rainbow to show that he'll never do it again, but this time was OK. Oh yes, he wants a bloody sacrifice too from the surviving animals.

Much easier than saying "I like Noah and he seems to like his family (the ones he will not curse when he's drunk). The rest of you die... ... now!"

Exactly. Fact is, God is a drama queen who loves to strut his stuff. He could just as easily snap his God-fingers and accomplish whatever he wants quietly and efficiently, but he likes to mix it up and make noise so people will be impressed.

An even more striking example is the Exodus from Egypt. "God's people" are enslaved and need to be rescued. (Why it took God a couple of centuries to finally hear their cries is never explained, but we'll let that go.) Does he simply say, "OK, you're outta there" and instantly teleport them to the Promised Land? No, he goes through the charade of the Ten Plagues--and he deliberately plays mind games with Pharaoh (it says no less than nine times in Exodus that God "hardons Pharaoh's heart" to make sure Pharaoh will refuse to free the Israelites), allowing him to show off his magic tricks and impress the Egyptians. The key to the whole thing is in Exodus 10:1-2, where God is talking to Moses:

Go to Pharaoh. For I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his courtiers, in order that I may display these My signs among them, and that you may recount in the hearing of your sons and of your sons' sons how I made a mockery of the Egyptians and how I displayed My signs among them--in order that you may know that I am the Lord.

That always makes me picture a gorilla beating his chest.

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28-12-2011, 10:19 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
Here's one.

Do you consider all parts of the bible to be essential or is it more prudent to only tick off areas that are applicable?

To give the question (which has been asked in various forms) some substance, I'll point out that I'm not trying to trap you or suggest that you SHOULD believe in every inch of the good book. I'm simply curious to see if you're willing to see the bible as having 'good' and 'bad' concepts or as being 'sometimes relevant' or 'sometimes irrelevant'.

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29-12-2011, 08:29 AM (This post was last modified: 29-12-2011 08:38 AM by kingschosen.)
RE: Ask a Theist!

Forget the box thing... Did you really just suggest that the Ark was shaped like a box therefore it is nearly impossible to capsize? There are some strange physics going on here. I'd like a non-creationist reference for this please.


I think National Geographic did an experiment with a scale model in a wave pool and they were unable to capsize it.

Also, the following questions (most) are irrelevant as my beliefs (I believe in a regional flood and evolution) make them moot; however, I will answer them.

How did Noah feed all of these animals? Creationists only account for spacing to house said animals, but they do not address the food supply issue. Delving even deeper into the food issue... what about the carnivores? Did Noah gather extra animals to feed these carnivores? Did he simply butcher animals before hand to store food for them?

1) Food - one of two answers A) since it was a regional flood only regional animals were gathered; therefore, making the animal load significantly less, thus having plenty of room for food. B) God provided sustenance for the animals during the time.

2) Carnivores - It's a common misconception that only 2 of each animal were on the ark. The Bible says that 14 clean animals and 2 unclean animals of each kind were gathered on the ark. The excessive amount of clean animals could have been used as food.

What about resulting fecal matter? I will grant that him and his children were able to even remove the fecal matter. What I want to know is how they possibly even began to start that chore.

Again, with just regional animals this isn't an impossible task. Yes, it's a daunting one but not impossible.

I'll even grant all of that actually and pose yet another question... how did these animals maintain exercise? But I'll even grant you this one.

My hunch is that animals were mostly allowed to roam; but, all of these answers can be quelled by a simple "God did it". Good thing I'm not like that Smile

How did the biodiversity come about? Kangaroos in Australia, Penguins in the arctic, Lions in Africa, Tigers in Asia, etc. How did they end up where they are starting from the crash site?

regional flood, evolution, etc

But again, let's grant you this premise as well. By the way, I'm under the assumption that at any one of these points, you're going to say "God helped". That is the premise I'm granting.

HAHAHAHAHAHA I called it before actually reading it. Go us.

Are you familiar with birth defects due to incest? How did these "kinds" of animals manage to inbreed many times over without severe retardation occurring? Alright alright, God helped.

regional fl... oh you know

God is omniscient. God is all-powerful. God had the power to help Noah and these animals. God had the power to send a flood to cleanse the Earth. But let's revisit the premise that God is all-powerful. Does that not mean he could have simply skipped to the end-goal with a snap of his all-powerful fingers?

Why did God go through all of these steps to help Noah and cleanse the Earth causing needless suffering when he didn't have to?


I don't know God's plan. I don't know why God did it one way and not another. Just like you don't know why I ate gumbo last night instead turkey and dressing. The end result was my satiation. God end result of the flood was cleaning the region for the Messianic line from the corruption that the Nephilim caused.

I can't answer for God's chosen path for His plan because that's His own.

(28-12-2011 07:30 PM)cufflink Wrote:  Go to Pharaoh. For I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his courtiers, in order that I may display these My signs among them, and that you may recount in the hearing of your sons and of your sons' sons how I made a mockery of the Egyptians and how I displayed My signs among them--in order that you may know that I am the Lord.

And yet, Arminians say we have free will...


(28-12-2011 10:19 PM)Bairny Wrote:  Here's one.

Do you consider all parts of the bible to be essential or is it more prudent to only tick off areas that are applicable?

I believe all.

Quote:To give the question (which has been asked in various forms) some substance, I'll point out that I'm not trying to trap you or suggest that you SHOULD believe in every inch of the good book. I'm simply curious to see if you're willing to see the bible as having 'good' and 'bad' concepts or as being 'sometimes relevant' or 'sometimes irrelevant'.

Well, it certainly has good and bad in it, but I think our definitions are different. I think you're saying that the Bible teaches some "bad" things ie morally wrong, heinous acts. I see these as part of God's plan (which I really don't feel like typing out... again).

Yes, the Bible teaches "bad" things, but I believe they are for a purpose and for lessons.

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29-12-2011, 09:12 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(27-12-2011 03:48 PM)Clint Barnett Wrote:  This has probably been asked before but I wonder what your take is on this:

Why do theists insist on bothering with continuously pushing their dogma on atheists when we are damned no matter what we do. The reason I say this is because of this particular scripture:

but whosoever shall blaspheme against the Holy Spirit hath never forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin - Mark 3:29

Doesn't this negate any reason to start believing in such things. Why would an atheist even bother (if an atheist would even consider converting), we obviously already blaspheme the holy spirit.

Get that claptrap outta KC's way, silly atheist. Big Grin

I'm an atheist with Holy Spirit; what's that all about? Personally, it's hilarity. Holy Spirit is the atheist's best friend. See the agenda in Mark? The Holy Spirit - yeah, that's agenda; Christian agenda. In 2007 the Rational Responders promoted this bit of senseless sensationalism in which all who "testified to the blaspheme against the Holy Spirit" were given a copy of The God Delusion; days of infamy in my book. I mighta been atheist back then if it weren't for those clowns... the relevance here is in having heard the apologist response. "The official Christian cover story," as it were, that one cannot "blaspheme the Holy Spirit" as such a proscription only refers to Jesus and his Epic Title Match with Satan... Satan... Satan... That only Jesus could have "blaspehemed the Holy Spirit," and he didn't, so there!

Which is a cover story, and can be interpreted from the text. That blaspheme the Holy Spirit means to deny the Christ. They used it for their own nefarious purposes, them Christians. Tongue

But I'm not here for or against, I'm here giving props to KC for sticking it out these 31 pages. Na-na-na^ na-na-na...

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29-12-2011, 09:21 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
Quote:2) Carnivores - It's a common misconception that only 2 of each animal were on the ark. The Bible says that 14 clean animals and 2 unclean animals of each kind were gathered on the ark. The excessive amount of clean animals could have been used as food.

Absolutely, you're right. So they brought 14 exemplars of each clean animal (7 pairs) They needed 2 for re-population and at least one of each for the sacrifice.

Clean animals, according to the bible are: sheep, cow, goat, a bunch of birds and a bunch of grasshoppers. I agree, you can feed all the feline types, all the canine types, carnivorous insects, snakes, birds, bears etc. X2 (2 individuals of each) with 11 cows, goats and sheep for at least 10 months. The lion alone would eat pigeons like I eat french fries. But yes, no problem there. Especially since all the animals would probably get off the ark kinda hungry. Too hungry for reproduction, one might argue.

Oh, no Hallucinations 4:11 says the 'gilded sheep should be stewed in rat blood' but Morons 5:16 contradicts it. (Chas)

I would never shake a baby unless the recipe requires it.
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