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30-12-2011, 03:43 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(30-12-2011 02:28 PM)ddrew Wrote:  
(30-12-2011 02:11 PM)Clint Barnett Wrote:  Anyway thanks for bringing my post from the dead. I was wondering if KC was going to miss it.

YeaH KC's been missing posts alot lately ... starting to wonder if he's been drinking the punch from Egor's punch bowl. I'd go back and dig up stuff but... I think my last post was more of a statement than a question. So I'll leave it where it is. Let the man dig it up if he chooses. Anyhow I'd hang around a bit longer and type some more off topic shit but I've got a red head with big boobs to go visit in another post. Cya.....

Mmm...thanks for reminding me. I better go visit that post too...

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
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30-12-2011, 05:01 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
Hi all,
enjoying another great thread. Amazing how y'all cover more topics in one thread than a library; fact, fiction, mythology, physics, psychology, science fiction... It's like doing homework that's fun!

I could be wrong, but these two posts seem a bit contradictory...

(15-12-2011 11:46 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  If you are arguing a point, you should build your argument on facts and evidence. Your personal views should remain mostly transparent (impossible to do, though). In an argument, as soon as your start letting your personal bias infiltrate your evidence, it will begin to weaken your position.

(19-12-2011 10:11 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  @SecularStudent
I know because of the miracle that was my conversion.

Peace.

"Religion is the binky of a teen-age humanity."
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30-12-2011, 05:41 PM (This post was last modified: 30-12-2011 05:58 PM by kingschosen.)
RE: Ask a Theist!
(30-12-2011 05:01 PM)yosemitesam Wrote:  Hi all,
enjoying another great thread. Amazing how y'all cover more topics in one thread than a library; fact, fiction, mythology, physics, psychology, science fiction... It's like doing homework that's fun!

I could be wrong, but these two posts seem a bit contradictory...

(15-12-2011 11:46 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  If you are arguing a point, you should build your argument on facts and evidence. Your personal views should remain mostly transparent (impossible to do, though). In an argument, as soon as your start letting your personal bias infiltrate your evidence, it will begin to weaken your position.

(19-12-2011 10:11 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  @SecularStudent
I know because of the miracle that was my conversion.

Peace.

There's a thing called "context".

You are taking things out of it. No, my statements aren't contradictory.

The first statement was addressing known provable facts on debatable topics.

The second statement was about me personally with unprovable, non-debatable anecdotes. Since the question was about me, it becomes personal.
(29-12-2011 11:05 AM)ddrew Wrote:  
(29-12-2011 10:39 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(29-12-2011 10:35 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  But Chas, it's not circular if there is an acceptance of an omni-all God that has an infinite will and infinite plan. This is what I believe.

I'm saying your whole belief system is bizarre and full of circular reasoning.
So attempts to clarify it are doomed. I don't understand why people keep asking, except it may be like throwing a ball for a dog.

And here it comes down to what I believe, I believe that ultimatly mankind will never 'know' all the answers while we exist in our current state. Whatever powers are in control of this universe be it a supernatural force or natural. We are trapped within the confines of our limited but still evolving minds. We will continue to evolve and as we do so will our knowledge of the '"how's and why's". Short of the human race falling victim to extinction, we as a collective species will continue the ultimate goals and driving force behind every species... continue to breed and perpetuate the survival of our kind.

Ideas of science and god will continue to evolve just as it has over the past thousands of years. We will continue to ask questions, we'll continue to have bizarre and circular reasoning when it comes to religion. Good will continue to combat evil. Mankind will continue to fight to survive against the extinction of our race. It's in our nature.

So everyone just sit your ass back... grab a damn beer, chill out, and don't forget to enjoy all the breeding! Big Grin

I had a couple of beers last night. Never really enjoyed yellow beer, but this Shiner Blonde was good stuff.
(30-12-2011 12:22 PM)NotSoVacuous Wrote:  You stated the bible is your main source of validity for believing so... Can we at least say for a moment that it is more likely that the book was written entirely by cynical men and it has no bearing on any form of divinity at all? I only say this because it is all we have to go off of, a book, from the past, written by men.

That's a legitimate train of thought; however, I believe that the Bible is, indeed, inspired. If I say that it's not inspired then it starts a slippery slope, which would lead to not being able to take anything in the Bible as truth.

Quote:Second, you answered this earlier, I would just like it consolidated into this response. The feelings/thoughts you claim or presume to be god could just be wishful thinking combined with chemicals in the brain deluding you? Along with the events that happened it your favor, coincidence? After all you do have a 1 in 7billion chance, so can we really say the events were that far fetched to have happen by chance or possible influence by you and family members/friends?

Chas suggested this, but I stated that I felt confident in my faith.

Quote:In hindsight of these previous questions, wouldn't it be more reasonable to be a deist or rather a theist without a religious title (aka Christian) considering there really is no ties other than pure wishful thinking to choose one particular faith?

No. Again, I feel confident in my Christian faith is correct; however, I have acknowledged that since I'm not omniscient, I can never know for sure.
(30-12-2011 02:59 PM)Bairny Wrote:  KC, I wasn't necessarily saying that the Bible teaches 'bad things', I was simply suggesting that only some of it may be relevant in the modern age. I was asking if you are willing to say - at times - "well, I can't do that".

Ahhh, okay. Yes, I have said many times that Levitical law was for the Jews. The law set the foundation for Jesus' teachings which became for all believers - Jew or Gentile.

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30-12-2011, 07:46 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(30-12-2011 05:41 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Chas suggested this, but I stated that I felt confident in my faith.


No. Again, I feel confident in my Christian faith is correct; however, I have acknowledged that since I'm not omniscient, I can never know for sure.


I know you are confident, but I am asking as to what you mean by this. Do you understand the probability that it is more likely for men to lie than divine inspiration governing the bible?

Simple asking in an objective sense do you acknowledge the fact that your only source for believing is entirely wishful thinking considering we can't truly know that the bible had divine intervention.

My way of viewing this is:

What is more likely, 2000 years ago, men were power hungry and superstitious or there was a divine creator who chose to elect men to carry the word down for ages in such a way that it can not be distinguished from fact or fiction.

"We Humans are capable of greatness." -Carl Sagan
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30-12-2011, 10:36 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
Kingschosen.... let me ask you something ... very serious note here....


You have a beautiful wife.. a good lookin kid.. There is no question that you love them both. You would give your life for them...

Now let me ask you. God has already chosen his elect. This is what I'm understanding from your own description of what you have faith in. How do you deal the the FACT according to your own belief that your wife and son may very well be non-elect. You can say that you believe that they are but you truely do not know that. God has been very specifc and selective in who is elect and non-elect. How do you deal with thinking about this.. believing this? Knowing that no matter what you do to influence your son's belief or your wife's... their destiny, their fate has already been deemed by God.
You gave testimony that your are sure that your are one of the elect. You believe that... but are they? How would you know.. What could you do? You couldn'd do anything about it... if God did not elect your family then they are doomed... and there is nothing you can do about it.

I'm not making this post to be a dick... I value family very, VERY much. I have an 8 year old son myself and I know the power of love for a child. I'm asking you this because of what you've stated that you believe. How does this effect you knowing (or not knowing) if or if not your family has been chosen ?

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -- Voltaire
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30-12-2011, 10:52 PM (This post was last modified: 30-12-2011 11:02 PM by kingschosen.)
RE: Ask a Theist!
(30-12-2011 07:46 PM)NotSoVacuous Wrote:  I know you are confident, but I am asking as to what you mean by this. Do you understand the probability that it is more likely for men to lie than divine inspiration governing the bible?

Simple asking in an objective sense do you acknowledge the fact that your only source for believing is entirely wishful thinking considering we can't truly know that the bible had divine intervention.

My way of viewing this is:

What is more likely, 2000 years ago, men were power hungry and superstitious or there was a divine creator who chose to elect men to carry the word down for ages in such a way that it can not be distinguished from fact or fiction.

I don't think you're understanding what I'm saying. I'm saying I believe it's divinely inspired. You are consistently asking me why I don't believe that it's just a book written by lying men.

Why do I not believe this? Because I believe it's divinely inspired.

Yes, it could have been written by lying men; however, since I believe it was inspired, this point becomes incompatible with my belief. I've accepted the amount of faith that it takes for it to be divinely inspired.

Not sure what else you are asking.
(30-12-2011 10:36 PM)ddrew Wrote:  Kingschosen.... let me ask you something ... very serious note here....


You have a beautiful wife.. a good lookin kid.. There is no question that you love them both. You would give your life for them...

Now let me ask you. God has already chosen his elect. This is what I'm understanding from your own description of what you have faith in. How do you deal the the FACT according to your own belief that your wife and son may very well be non-elect. You can say that you believe that they are but you truely do not know that. God has been very specifc and selective in who is elect and non-elect. How do you deal with thinking about this.. believing this? Knowing that no matter what you do to influence your son's belief or your wife's... their destiny, their fate has already been deemed by God.
You gave testimony that your are sure that your are one of the elect. You believe that... but are they? How would you know.. What could you do? You couldn'd do anything about it... if God did not elect your family then they are doomed... and there is nothing you can do about it.

I'm not making this post to be a dick... I value family very, VERY much. I have an 8 year old son myself and I know the power of love for a child. I'm asking you this because of what you've stated that you believe. How does this effect you knowing (or not knowing) if or if not your family has been chosen ?

Yeah, that's a very difficult question.

Well, I know that my wife is elect as she believes like me. As for my son and daughter? I don't know. As a father it is very difficult to accept the fact that my children could not be elect, but I have to teach them about God and be obedient to what He wants.

I know that God has a plan and a will, and I've accepted that wholly in my life. I take my comfort in Him and that He has my best interests, as well as my family's, in His hands.

I can only hope that my children are elect. If they aren't, it will, indeed, crush me; however, I know that God will restore me in the end. Everything in this world is temporary; God is eternal.

This is what I believe.

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31-12-2011, 12:18 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
If you are so sure you are one of the elect, why not just commit suicide? I am not encouraging suicide, I'm just wondering what your beliefs on the matter are.
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31-12-2011, 12:37 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(31-12-2011 12:18 AM)Ben Wrote:  If you are so sure you are one of the elect, why not just commit suicide? I am not encouraging suicide, I'm just wondering what your beliefs on the matter are.

Because that's not in God's plan. It's physically impossible for me to commit suicide unless God allows it. Also, I have love for myself and my family, so it's not something that I could do.

This same question could be posed to anyone. If you (atheist) are so sure of nonexistence after death, then why don't you just commit suicide and forget the troubles of earth? It's not like you're going to remember any of this, or even know or care of you hurt other people doing it. Love, pain, empathy, or any emotion would cease to exist; moreover, so what if you love your family too much to do it... what does it matter? It's not like you're going to care when you're dead... or even know. So seriously... why don't you just commit suicide?

See... this is kind of a terrible question.

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31-12-2011, 01:32 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(30-12-2011 10:52 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(30-12-2011 10:36 PM)ddrew Wrote:  Kingschosen.... let me ask you something ... very serious note here....


You have a beautiful wife.. a good lookin kid.. There is no question that you love them both. You would give your life for them...

Now let me ask you. God has already chosen his elect. This is what I'm understanding from your own description of what you have faith in. How do you deal the the FACT according to your own belief that your wife and son may very well be non-elect. You can say that you believe that they are but you truely do not know that. God has been very specifc and selective in who is elect and non-elect. How do you deal with thinking about this.. believing this? Knowing that no matter what you do to influence your son's belief or your wife's... their destiny, their fate has already been deemed by God.
You gave testimony that your are sure that your are one of the elect. You believe that... but are they? How would you know.. What could you do? You couldn'd do anything about it... if God did not elect your family then they are doomed... and there is nothing you can do about it.

I'm not making this post to be a dick... I value family very, VERY much. I have an 8 year old son myself and I know the power of love for a child. I'm asking you this because of what you've stated that you believe. How does this effect you knowing (or not knowing) if or if not your family has been chosen ?

Yeah, that's a very difficult question.

Well, I know that my wife is elect as she believes like me. As for my son and daughter? I don't know. As a father it is very difficult to accept the fact that my children could not be elect, but I have to teach them about God and be obedient to what He wants.

I know that God has a plan and a will, and I've accepted that wholly in my life. I take my comfort in Him and that He has my best interests, as well as my family's, in His hands.

I can only hope that my children are elect. If they aren't, it will, indeed, crush me; however, I know that God will restore me in the end. Everything in this world is temporary; God is eternal.

This is what I believe.

That's the most fair and sincere answer I've seen you post yet... admirable. I know you took some time to think about that one before answering too..

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -- Voltaire
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31-12-2011, 01:36 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(31-12-2011 01:32 AM)ddrew Wrote:  That's the most fair and sincere answer I've seen you post yet... admirable. I know you took some time to think about that one before answering too..

Yeah, but it's still fucked up.

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
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