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09-01-2012, 05:15 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
I have a question for a theist. (It took me over an hour to write and re-write this post. I hope it's worth it)

You and I stand on hill at high noon in a remote region of the serengeti. In the distance we see an average size elephant and a large truck.
I tell you that both the elephant and the truck have been weighed and they are very close in having nearly the same weight, but one weighs more than the other.
I ask you to pick which one you think will weigh more when the team arrives to weigh them and as a side note, I'm going to tell you that no matter which one you pick, you will be wrong.
As a final addition, we also have setup a phone call to god who is on speaker phone and when you ask him which one will weigh more, he answers: "If the team arrives in less than 1 hour, the truck will weigh more. If the team arrives in more than 1 hour, the elephant will weigh more."

Which one will you pick ?

Before you make a decision, you ask god when will the team arrive ?
He responds - "It depends on the choice you make"
He goes on to say -
"Your host has two teams. One team is 30 min away and the other team is more than an hour away.
If you pick the truck, your host will then radio a team that will arrive in more than one hour and the elephant will weigh more.
If you pick the elephant, your host will then radio a team that will arrive in 30 min and the truck will weigh more"

When an answer from god depends on a choice you will make and your choice depends on the information you get from god, can there ever be an answer from god that will help you make the right decision ?

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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09-01-2012, 07:14 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(09-01-2012 03:44 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  As for if my child was accused of being a witch, I would hope and plea with the locals to reconsider their accusations. If they did not reconsider, I would probably die defending my child.

Would you offer yourself in place of your child? Would you expect the accusers to accept your offer?

Would you willingly let your child die if the witch hunters allowed 10 other witches to go free in exchange for your child's life?

"To think of what the world has suffered from superstition, from religion, from the worship of beast and stone and god, is
almost enough to make one insane."

Robert G. Ingersoll
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10-01-2012, 12:32 PM (This post was last modified: 10-01-2012 12:52 PM by kingschosen.)
RE: Ask a Theist!
(09-01-2012 05:04 PM)TalladegaTom Wrote:  Sir, that is the most namby-pamby answer I have heard in a while.
Lets be real here for a second.

What is your method to determine which parts are true and which parts are not?
Your method is to "simply subscribe to their interpretation or the interpretation that is the most consistent" with what you like to hear.
The study of History, Language, and the context is a good idea. You gathered the data but you prefer not to collate it with a universally applied and accepted method.
It is your particular interpretation by feel that is "right" to you.
Apparently, you really don't have an honest way to determine which article of faith is true.

They've got your daughter tied to the stake but they are still gathering wood.
There is still time to save her from a death by delusion.
The god fearing are ready to set her on fire because someone called her a witch and she was judged so.
The judge, having had a "vision" overnight and using "interpretation that is the most consistent" to unbending biblical teachings has agreed she is a witch but will listen to your final plea.
How do you plan to stop it? What's it going to be? Death by delusion or life by reason?
Hurry! There coming with a lit torch!
Unless your daughter is a witch.....Wink

Go here.
(09-01-2012 05:15 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  I have a question for a theist. (It took me over an hour to write and re-write this post. I hope it's worth it)

You and I stand on hill at high noon in a remote region of the serengeti. In the distance we see an average size elephant and a large truck.
I tell you that both the elephant and the truck have been weighed and they are very close in having nearly the same weight, but one weighs more than the other.
I ask you to pick which one you think will weigh more when the team arrives to weigh them and as a side note, I'm going to tell you that no matter which one you pick, you will be wrong.
As a final addition, we also have setup a phone call to god who is on speaker phone and when you ask him which one will weigh more, he answers: "If the team arrives in less than 1 hour, the truck will weigh more. If the team arrives in more than 1 hour, the elephant will weigh more."

Which one will you pick ?

Before you make a decision, you ask god when will the team arrive ?
He responds - "It depends on the choice you make"
He goes on to say -
"Your host has two teams. One team is 30 min away and the other team is more than an hour away.
If you pick the truck, your host will then radio a team that will arrive in more than one hour and the elephant will weigh more.
If you pick the elephant, your host will then radio a team that will arrive in 30 min and the truck will weigh more"

When an answer from god depends on a choice you will make and your choice depends on the information you get from god, can there ever be an answer from god that will help you make the right decision ?

Sorry that you spent so much time on that question, but per what I believe, I do not have a choice. I have no free will. Everything has been predestined from the beginning.
(09-01-2012 07:14 PM)Organon Wrote:  
(09-01-2012 03:44 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  As for if my child was accused of being a witch, I would hope and plea with the locals to reconsider their accusations. If they did not reconsider, I would probably die defending my child.

Would you offer yourself in place of your child? Would you expect the accusers to accept your offer?

Would you willingly let your child die if the witch hunters allowed 10 other witches to go free in exchange for your child's life?

Yes.

I don't know.

No.

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10-01-2012, 08:15 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
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10-01-2012, 10:17 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(09-12-2011 03:10 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  I will do my best to answer your queries as honestly and completely as I know how.

Ok, I know this is considered Christianity's big mystery and has likely been asked before, but here goes.

What is the deal with the trinity? Jesus isn't the Father who isn't the Holy Spirit who isn't Jesus but they are all God? And what is the holy spirit? Some kind of God mist? And why is it so bad to blaspheme about the Holy Spirit but not the Father or Son.

In science, "fact" can only mean "confirmed to such a degree that it would be perverse to withhold provisional assent." I suppose that apples might start to rise tomorrow, but the possibility does not merit equal time in physics classrooms.

--Stephen Jay Gould
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10-01-2012, 10:27 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(10-01-2012 10:17 PM)scientician Wrote:  
(09-12-2011 03:10 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  I will do my best to answer your queries as honestly and completely as I know how.

Ok, I know this is considered Christianity's big mystery and has likely been asked before, but here goes.

What is the deal with the trinity? Jesus isn't the Father who isn't the Holy Spirit who isn't Jesus but they are all God? And what is the holy spirit? Some kind of God mist? And why is it so bad to blaspheme about the Holy Spirit but not the Father or Son.

What this forum needs is a Unitarian. He could answer your question.Wink

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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10-01-2012, 10:35 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(10-01-2012 10:27 PM)Chas Wrote:  What this forum needs is a Unitarian. He could answer your question.Wink

Yeah that would make it straight forward! I was thinking the trinity is something Xians made up on the go after they decided their made up Jesus should be God too and now *poof* they're different from Judaism. I just don't get the holy spirit bit.

In science, "fact" can only mean "confirmed to such a degree that it would be perverse to withhold provisional assent." I suppose that apples might start to rise tomorrow, but the possibility does not merit equal time in physics classrooms.

--Stephen Jay Gould
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10-01-2012, 11:47 PM (This post was last modified: 11-01-2012 12:07 AM by Organon.)
RE: Ask a Theist!
A question for our resident theiist:

Given that YHWH was an invented god of Edom Bedouins or Midianites and then adopted by the Israelites, which god did Jesus declare himself to be the son of?

He couldn't possibly have been the son of an invented god (unless he himself was invented), so who was his father god?

Did he actually believe he was the son of god or a child of god like everyone else?

If he existed and believed he was the son of Yahweh then he was delusional, Yahweh being an invention.

The Israelites/Hebrews/Jews did believe in other gods (without necessarily worshiping them), so perhaps Jesus was the son of another god.

I find this an interesting situation.




(10-01-2012 10:35 PM)scientician Wrote:  I was thinking the trinity is something Xians made up on the go after they decided their made up Jesus should be God too and now *poof* they're different from Judaism. I just don't get the holy spirit bit.

It seems strange to me that it took 200 men to decide what/who god was! A real god wouldn't need any of that nonsense.

They also decided that Old Yahweh had always been a 3-in-one, no matter what the inventors of Yahweh thought, they didn't count.

A load of old rubbish!

"To think of what the world has suffered from superstition, from religion, from the worship of beast and stone and god, is
almost enough to make one insane."

Robert G. Ingersoll
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12-01-2012, 08:44 AM (This post was last modified: 12-01-2012 08:46 AM by kingschosen.)
RE: Ask a Theist!
(10-01-2012 10:17 PM)scientician Wrote:  What is the deal with the trinity? Jesus isn't the Father who isn't the Holy Spirit who isn't Jesus but they are all God?

Yes. I tried to explain it here.

You know... I sat and thought for a long time about how to explain the Trinity. I was trying and trying to form a coherent, clear, and accurate interpretation of what I understand, but it's actually pretty difficult to put into words.

I'm not even sure if this is going to make any sense, but here goes...

So, lucid dreaming. If you've never had a lucid dream then you will probably be even more lost at the end of this. Anyway, you know when you're having a lucid dream you KNOW that you're dreaming and you're aware that you're asleep in your bed. However, the weird part is you know that you're also in a dream.

You know that you're separate from your dream self but you're also your dream self in your dream. You know that your actions from your real self are separate from your dream self, but your dream self's actions are directly influenced by your real self.

You are self aware of both beings and you are in complete control of both beings; however, the dream self acts separate and on its own from the real self; yet you are in control of its actions even though it is self sufficient.

Lucid dreaming is one of the coolest experiences ever, and that "feeling" you have about your real self and your dream self is the only coherent explanation for the Trinity I can come up with.

Yeah... probably just lost of bunch of you... meh, sorry about that if I did.


Quote:And what is the holy spirit? Some kind of God mist? And why is it so bad to blaspheme about the Holy Spirit but not the Father or Son.

The HS is a mediator to the Father. This is the part of God that speaks for us. Without the HS, there can be communication with the Father.
(10-01-2012 11:47 PM)Organon Wrote:  A question for our resident theiist:

Given that YHWH was an invented god of Edom Bedouins or Midianites and then adopted by the Israelites, which god did Jesus declare himself to be the son of?

He couldn't possibly have been the son of an invented god (unless he himself was invented), so who was his father god?

Did he actually believe he was the son of god or a child of god like everyone else?

If he existed and believed he was the son of Yahweh then he was delusional, Yahweh being an invention.

The Israelites/Hebrews/Jews did believe in other gods (without necessarily worshiping them), so perhaps Jesus was the son of another god.

I find this an interesting situation.




(10-01-2012 10:35 PM)scientician Wrote:  I was thinking the trinity is something Xians made up on the go after they decided their made up Jesus should be God too and now *poof* they're different from Judaism. I just don't get the holy spirit bit.

It seems strange to me that it took 200 men to decide what/who god was! A real god wouldn't need any of that nonsense.

They also decided that Old Yahweh had always been a 3-in-one, no matter what the inventors of Yahweh thought, they didn't count.

A load of old rubbish!

Try to not load your questions. No point in me answering loaded questions.

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12-01-2012, 08:52 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(12-01-2012 08:44 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  Yes. I tried to explain it

Thanks for the answer, I appreciate it. Also, neat analogy, I had a short-lived lucid dream once and I know exactly what you mean.

In science, "fact" can only mean "confirmed to such a degree that it would be perverse to withhold provisional assent." I suppose that apples might start to rise tomorrow, but the possibility does not merit equal time in physics classrooms.

--Stephen Jay Gould
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