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16-01-2012, 10:20 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(16-01-2012 08:07 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(13-01-2012 07:19 PM)Blythe Wrote:  Trying to avoid the hard questions does not show you in a good light.

You're right... I haven't answered any questions yet.


If KC was using any sort of consistent methodology, these questions would all have the same answers universally within theology.
If religion had any validity, KC could simply point to and ask any theological leader across the globe or anywhere and get the same answers.
As we all know, the story is very different across the globe, or even across the street depending on who you ask.
That right there should be a huge red flag for anyone, yet the faithful remain blind to it and explain it away in some other way.
ANY BS answers that KC comes up with are his interpretation of other peoples previously written BS and are just a continuation of more religious BS.
Unless he can provide some consistent method to determine what one should conclude to be true, I will cry "Skyhook" every time.
Faith is a known failure in determining what is fact and what is fiction.
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16-01-2012, 10:46 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
Why does no one want to use this thread the way it was intended?
KC very openly and bravely opened himself and his faith to the scrutinizing atheist public on our good forum. He did so as a gesture of kindness. A way to look in and see how he thinks. Not as a tool for conversion. Because of this I find a lot of the hostility directed at him and his answers to be really far off base and rude.
He's not asking anyone to believe in what he does. HE knows better, I wish I could say the same for all the atheists on this site. Hostility much?
Yes what he believes is crazy to us, and yes if he were proselytizing he and his beliefs would be put under some aggressive assault, but that's not the case.
It's just a window. Don't break it.
Learn from it.
He's here and willing to debate in a freindly manner, appreciate that. I bet if most of you went to a christian forum you wouldn't be as friendly.
Again thank you KC for the window into your faith, its insane but totally intriguing.

"I think of myself as an intelligent, sensitive human being with the soul of a clown which always forces me to blow it at the most important moments." -Jim Morrison
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16-01-2012, 11:11 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(16-01-2012 10:46 AM)lucradis Wrote:  He's here and willing to debate in a freindly manner, appreciate that. I bet if most of you went to a christian forum you wouldn't be as friendly.
Again thank you KC for the window into your faith, its insane but totally intriguing.

Was thinking about it and ya know.... I think KC is the only Christian on these forums I havn't been hostile towards.. a few jokes here and there,... some good laughs .. some drinks, but havn't been hostile....... YET... Tongue

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -- Voltaire
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16-01-2012, 11:49 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(16-01-2012 10:46 AM)lucradis Wrote:  Why does no one want to use this thread the way it was intended?
KC very openly and bravely opened himself and his faith to the scrutinizing atheist public on our good forum. He did so as a gesture of kindness. A way to look in and see how he thinks. Not as a tool for conversion. Because of this I find a lot of the hostility directed at him and his answers to be really far off base and rude.
He's not asking anyone to believe in what he does. HE knows better, I wish I could say the same for all the atheists on this site. Hostility much?
Yes what he believes is crazy to us, and yes if he were proselytizing he and his beliefs would be put under some aggressive assault, but that's not the case.
It's just a window. Don't break it.
Learn from it.
He's here and willing to debate in a freindly manner, appreciate that. I bet if most of you went to a christian forum you wouldn't be as friendly.
Again thank you KC for the window into your faith, its insane but totally intriguing.

I apologize for coming across as hostile to KC if I did.
I can only somewhat see the value of having KC here as a "way to look in and see how he thinks". That is important, but ANY theist could do that and I think most of us have already heard all of it.
I really see little value in constantly hearing about what a theist thinks is right based on scripture or which holy books should be followed and which ones to discard. All based on a particular whim. It is just mud in the water. There is nothing to learn from that in my opinion.
The crux of the matter and the real value of having him here is HOW he gets to the position he holds. I see no reason not to pursue that unless "The Thinking Atheist" deems it inappropriate. The theists usually run from that like the wind which is why it requires some pursuit.

Sir, anything I have said so far certainly has not been hostile. By Christian standards, this has been most meek.
I'm sure you have at least been "Damned to hell" and the like. Heck, I have been told much worse and that was prior to me getting "hostile" with any of them.
No one has threatened KC or anything of the sort here.
KC certainly seems like a great person and I'd be happy to share a brew or two sometime.
It is just that the roots of reason must be addressed or we are just wasting cyber space.
I have pressed him on his methodology which is the crucial to the matter which he so far has avoided.
It is a fundamental debate point which deserves a critical look. TY.
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16-01-2012, 11:57 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
I have exhaustively explained my methodology and my how I come to my theological conclusions.

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16-01-2012, 12:13 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(16-01-2012 11:57 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  I have exhaustively explained my methodology and my how I come to my theological conclusions.

I must disagree but will not pursue you on this point directly any longer.
It is my opinion that you explained at great length the information you used to form your opinion but not why it is valid.
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16-01-2012, 12:20 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(16-01-2012 12:13 PM)TalladegaTom Wrote:  
(16-01-2012 11:57 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  I have exhaustively explained my methodology and my how I come to my theological conclusions.

I must disagree but will not pursue you on this point directly any longer.
It is my opinion that you explained at great length the information you used to form your opinion but not why it is valid.

But, you discount all theology as false, so none of my information could be valid to you.

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16-01-2012, 12:49 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
I like Lucradis' post. The problem is that most atheists on this forum want to debate a fundie and not someone like KC. That is the reason I have not got on here to ask KC questions, because I know that his answers won't be fundamental BS and that I still won't agree with them. What the atheists who are trying to convert KC want is a YEC fundamentalist evangelical to start a thread with this title.

I will concede and ask KC a question though, just to keep the purpose of the thread alive. This is something I have been thinking about quite a bit lately and something I have conversed with my office mate about and I want to see what a theist thinks about it, so, KC, here we go (and I hope that this has not already been asked but I don't have the patience to wade through 42 pages of responses)

You cannot prove the nonexistence of something that does not exist. It is easy to prove the existence of something because all you need is evidence of it. I can go out into the woods and find evidence of the existence of a raccoon, tranquilize it and bring it back to the lab and prove it exists. If I go into the woods to prove that bigfoot exists, I will come out with no positive evidence that it exists, but I will also be unable to find evidence that it does not exist. The reason is simple, something that does not exist, cannot leave behind evidence. This is why the myth of bigfoot continues, because scientists can't say that it 100% does not exist, all they can say is that there is no evidence to support the claim that it does exist and therefore is unlikely to exist.

So, here is the question KC (after a setup paragraph). I am going to ask you to stop believing in God for a few minutes and pretend that you do not believe in his (or her) existence (I hope that is a reasonable request). How does one assert the existence of god, from the perspective of skepticism? In other words, how does someone draw the conclusion that God must exist, in the absence of evidence that it exists? This question is one that I would also pose to any bigfoot believers as well.

I am also going to ramble on here that I did this myself for a variety of topics and found myself in the process. I stopped believing in the existence of an alien presence on Earth, bigfoot, the Loch Ness Monster and eventually god in this manner. I am not expecting KC to convert, I am merely trying to say that I am only asking KC to do something that I also did (it is not really fair to ask someone to do something you are not willing to do yourself). Julia Sweeney has a book/speech where she talks about this as well. She talks about putting on the "no-God" glasses for a few minutes each day and seeing how it worked. If no one has read/heard her book/speech called "Letting go of God" you should check it out.

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16-01-2012, 01:05 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
[/quote]

But, you discount all theology as false, so none of my information could be valid to you.
[/quote]

Correct. Because the theology IS false.
May I point out the entire Creationist argument?
The arguments to support the idea are only valid from the theological points of view.
Folks can read the old theological books and writings all they want. Reality remains the same.
None of it has proven to be true.
EVERY single thing that we now know to be true has had a natural explanation.
Nothing has yet to be explained by anything supernatural.
If you came up with something that could go one millimeter past hypothesis I would jump on it in a heartbeat and credit you with the win.

Again I offer you the witch argument for your consideration.
If a loved one is accused of being a witch, what is your defense?
Think it through. It is a worthy thought experiment.
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16-01-2012, 01:17 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(16-01-2012 12:49 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  I like Lucradis' post. The problem is that most atheists on this forum want to debate a fundie and not someone like KC. That is the reason I have not got on here to ask KC questions, because I know that his answers won't be fundamental BS and that I still won't agree with them. What the atheists who are trying to convert KC want is a YEC fundamentalist evangelical to start a thread with this title.

I was thinking this as well. You see, there are actually a good bit of Christians that believe the way do; however, they are not tenacious like a fundie. These type of Christians tend to stick around the scholarly theological world and usually only converse with others who are scholarly and theological. It's not because they're afraid to debate non-believers; it's simply because it isn't efficient. Both sides aren't going to be converted, so it becomes a Mexican stand-off. What you'll also find is that a lot of these Christians have, indeed, done what I'm doing and grew tired of it; thus, returning to debate fellow Christians on theology.

Quote:I will concede and ask KC a question though, just to keep the purpose of the thread alive. This is something I have been thinking about quite a bit lately and something I have conversed with my office mate about and I want to see what a theist thinks about it, so, KC, here we go (and I hope that this has not already been asked but I don't have the patience to wade through 42 pages of responses)

lol I still don't know everyone doesn't do the 50 posts per page option.

Quote:You cannot prove the nonexistence of something that does not exist. It is easy to prove the existence of something because all you need is evidence of it. I can go out into the woods and find evidence of the existence of a raccoon, tranquilize it and bring it back to the lab and prove it exists. If I go into the woods to prove that bigfoot exists, I will come out with no positive evidence that it exists, but I will also be unable to find evidence that it does not exist. The reason is simple, something that does not exist, cannot leave behind evidence. This is why the myth of bigfoot continues, because scientists can't say that it 100% does not exist, all they can say is that there is no evidence to support the claim that it does exist and therefore is unlikely to exist.

So, here is the question KC (after a setup paragraph). I am going to ask you to stop believing in God for a few minutes and pretend that you do not believe in his (or her) existence (I hope that is a reasonable request). How does one assert the existence of god, from the perspective of skepticism? In other words, how does someone draw the conclusion that God must exist, in the absence of evidence that it exists? This question is one that I would also pose to any bigfoot believers as well.

I am also going to ramble on here that I did this myself for a variety of topics and found myself in the process. I stopped believing in the existence of an alien presence on Earth, bigfoot, the Loch Ness Monster and eventually god in this manner. I am not expecting KC to convert, I am merely trying to say that I am only asking KC to do something that I also did (it is not really fair to ask someone to do something you are not willing to do yourself). Julia Sweeney has a book/speech where she talks about this as well. She talks about putting on the "no-God" glasses for a few minutes each day and seeing how it worked. If no one has read/heard her book/speech called "Letting go of God" you should check it out.

I have alluded to this question, but I have not directly answered it. And, you know what? Your Bigfoot analogy works well.

You see, there is no conclusive evidence for Bigfoot, so how would one go about believing in Bigfoot without evidence? There are 3 ways:

1) Be indoctrinated into believing he exists.
2) Be willfully ignorant at the lack of evidence and choose to believe against reason.
3) See/experience Bigfoot.

As a caveat, though, none of these can be proved to anyone else but yourself.

For the belief in God, I feel that for many religious people #1 and #2 seem to be the most dominant. #3 is much rarer, and undoubtedly produces the strongest type of belief. For me, #3 happened. I can't deny it; I won't deny it.

As a former skeptic, my assertion that God exists is the fact I now believe God exists. Now, this assertion is real to me, but I cannot prove it via evidence.

Coincidentally though, my belief becomes a strong form of relative anecdotal evidence. How? Because there is no way that a person who embraced logic and reason would ever adopt the belief of Christianity because it relies too much on faith - something that is in direct conflict with the aforementioned two. But, it happened... and, you won't convinced me otherwise.

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