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17-01-2012, 10:36 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
Ok, this is a rather blunt question. Sorry if this has already been asked, but I did not want to read 44 pages of posts. Anyways, I'd like to ask the simple question:

"I am an agnostic atheist. Do you believe I am going to Hell for eternity? If so, do you think I deserve to? If not, then why should I believe in the first place?"

I think that last part made me seem shallow, implying that belief only serves as a ticket to Heaven, but I did not mean it like that. A reply would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.

"Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned" - Anonymous
I am glad to live where there is no God, for I am moral, and mortal; I do not wish to worship He who crafts an immoral immortality.
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17-01-2012, 10:43 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(17-01-2012 09:44 PM)TalladegaTom Wrote:  "I define God as an omnipresent, omniscient, and omnipotent being written about in the Bible defined further in the Trinity."

Everywhere, all knowing, and all powerful.
Yet it never lifts a finger to do anything!

KC could go ahead and Google image "starving children".
He might look at those images and then ask himself, what kind of god would sit right next to a starving, suffering kid (since god is omnipresent), knowing full well the pain and misery his apparent creation is in (since god is omniscient) while watching with apparent ability to act (since god is omnipotent) only to do nothing?
To the tune of 30,000+ people a day?
He could do that. But he won't preferring to stay happy cozy and warm peeking out at the world through god glasses.
If there is a god as KC defines him, that god is a cruel and callous sob that deserves no worship whatsoever.

We chirped him for this in the Calvinism thread... The answer is "yes God is a bastard" as far as I can make out, though he (God) will get pissed if you say that so it's best to shut up and hope you're not a starving child.

The issue is not whether God is worthy of following - I think KC? - it's truth and falsehood. As far as KC is concerned, God exists and is a bastard to large numbers of people, however KC and a few of his mates are lucky enough to be 'elect' so God shows them special favour and apparently won't braai them with the rest of us (nice South African term for you there - it roughly translates as 'very chilled barbeque' - look up "braai day" on youtube (song) for a more in depth analysis).
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18-01-2012, 12:27 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(28-12-2011 12:09 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(28-12-2011 10:29 AM)NoahsFarce Wrote:  
(28-12-2011 08:28 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(27-12-2011 06:21 PM)NoahsFarce Wrote:  My favorite bible story to inquire about is Noah's Ark.

Please explain to me how this story could possibly be true.

I believe it was a regional flood.

Well, the questions go much deeper than that. But by your answer, I take it that you aren't a bible literalist?

So first question based on the premise that this story is indeed historical fact...

How did the ark avoid being capsized during what must have been massive waves?

Well, I am pretty literal when it comes to the Bible; however, the translation of the flood account leads me to believe it was regional.

Anyway, the size of the ark was 438 x 73 x 48 foot box. Not a boat; but a box. These dimensions would make this box almost entirely impossible to capsize; even in 90 degree waves.

Hey KC, just ran across the regional vs. global flood issue somewhere else and recalled reading over this before. Have a few questions raised elsewhere...

1) If the flood was local, why bother getting all the animals and birds onto the ark? Wouldn't the animals have survived anyway (elsewhere than that region, then repopulated afterwards)? Wouldn't the birds have just flown to wherever the waters stopped?

2) What about Genesis 7:20? "The waters prevailed fifteen cubits upward, and the mountains were covered." How would the mountains be covered without the waters just spilling over, unless they were small mountains in a much, much larger basin of taller mountains? (I'm not aware of anything at all closely resembling this geological formation...)

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18-01-2012, 08:38 AM (This post was last modified: 18-01-2012 09:07 AM by kingschosen.)
RE: Ask a Theist!
(16-01-2012 03:12 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Hey KC,

Am curious about the process you went through, that helped you pick from the thousands of iterations of deities, (ALL of which developed through long historical processes), and by which you threw *almost* all of them out, and came to the conclusion that the "god" you were talking to, was the "Christian god", (assuming for the moment, there is only *one* of those...as certainly there are as many of THOSE as there are Christian's brains). Was there a "match-up" process ? The thousands year long DEVELOPMENT, in human cultural historical consciousness, of what came eventually to be called "Yahweh Sabaoth", (the "God of the Armies", and his wife Ashura, and their son Baal), was NOT UNIQUE. How did you decide to put your thumb down on one point in a historical process, and say "that's it..right there" ? Also by what process did you decide to place an ultimate significance to the *present* evolutionary state of that process, the "Christian god", (which is BOUND to continue to evolve) ? So first there is the historical problem.

See my above response to TheBeardedDude.

Quote:Second is the Epistemological problem. You say you *understand* the "will" of your particular deity because you have been "elected". Don't you see that as a teensy-weensy bit of a cop out ? ...a.) why doesn't a "loving deity "elect" all it's creatures ? (You DO describe an event driving home that day which was passive...so why one and not another "elected"?


I address a lot of my theology in the Calvinism thread, so I'm not going to go into great detail. However, it was because of God's grace that anyone is elect, since humanity served as the purpose for the Son.

Quote:Doesn't the randomness of that bother you ? ). b.) If you had never had a "Western" background, would you have interpreted that experience, in the car, in the terms you have ? (BTW, theists keep talking about "will" on this board, and never define that term). Anyway, you say "My heart was opened to a higher power". Certainly that is a metaphor for an event that occurred in your brain cells. Can you talk more about what you think that actually was, specifically, neurologically ?

Again, I talk about this in my response to TheBeardedDude.

Quote:Third, is the theological problem. The salvation/redemption paradigm was not spoken of by Yeshua bar Josef. It was introduced in the Pauline letters. Does it make sense that the principal actor in the "Jesus event" would have forgotten to mention the basic tenet of what came to be the movement which was named for him ?

The Messiah is prophesied in the OT, and Jesus does address His sacrifice and how it is an act of salvation.
(17-01-2012 06:45 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  I got no problem with that. As a hypogonadal man I've been on the steroid forums for years and I've seen how the collective anecdotal evidence of steroid users over the years and decades have influenced and even driven experimental ideas and designs. Often, anecdotal evidence is all we have to start with. Wink

I know you don't; however, there are others that don't see it that way. If I'm going to effectively communicate with them, I have to speak in a language that they can understand and accept.
(17-01-2012 08:46 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  I don't see no omnibenevolence there. Don't see any irreconcilable differences between that and we is god.

God isn't omnibenevolent. He is sovereign. I don't know where this Christian belief arose because it sure isn't Biblical. God gives according to His will.
(17-01-2012 09:21 PM)Reactor Wrote:  I am afraid i need a better explanation of what happened to you this day.
Did you heard voices? Did you heard thoughts? Did you saw anything? Did you heard anything? (I am not trying to offend you, i just want to understand what you experienced exactly)

How do you know that this was a higher power. I am assuming this was your first time experiencing it.
Why not a lower power or something else.

See post #434.


Quote:How exactly did it led you? Was there signs, voices or just an other feeling.

Post #434.

Quote:Did something "bad" happened in the close past of the day of the event that you couldn't handle by yourself and/or you needed someone to talk?(like a psychologist)
Do you feel happier now that you are Cristian?
Was you sad or melancholy before converting to Cristian?

Nope. Nothing bad was happening to me.
I do feel happier.
I was completely normal and happy before converting.

Quote:I just want to understand you psychological background and what might pushed you to convert.

I analyzed this aspect as well because I didn't want to be fooled into "converting" due to a psychological problem. After analyzing myself, I found that there was nothing wrong with me psychologically. As I've said before, I don't make hasty decisions and my decisions are well thought out.

(17-01-2012 10:32 PM)chromenun Wrote:  I have an honest question, but it might have been asked before...if so, I apologize for asking it again...

I meet lots of extreme conservatives, Republican types...but when I try to discuss with them about people that are altruistic in nature, they just don't seem to get the drift...it is all about Capitalism to them...

I mean they will nod and agree that it is great to be a monk or Jesuit or such, and to help others as long as that person is "spreading the word", but none seem to understand the gist of just "giving for the giving" or for bettering humanity for the sake of betterment...

What I don't understand is how then can these people consider themselves to be "Christian"??? I am an atheist and always have been (except for a brief time when I was indoctrinated into the Baptist cult, not because I chose to be, but my parents believed I should be)...for some weird reason, I just cannot wrap my mind around what these people are thinking...are all Christians then also Capitalists?? And do they not realize what this system is doing to humanity??

I am hoping that you will tell me that, NO, not all Christians are like that, and that there truly are some, maybe many, that really believe in helping others for no other reason than just to help...

I guess I just want to finally meet a true Christian that understands that I, as an atheist, can have the same ethics and values in life without the need for a "higher power" to direct me to make that choice...I make that choice out of pure love and respect for my fellow humans and other beings on this planet...and for our planet as well...

I hope I was able to convey my question properly...

I actually taught a lesson to my Sunday School about what the Bible teaches in regards to giving. I was surprised that many didn't understand the true concept of it. Unfortunately, many Christians do not give for the sake of giving; however, the ones that do understand what the Bible teaches will give what they can. I do. And, I'm poor.

There is also the issue of morality and ethics that you addressed. Yes, a typical Christian believes that morals are only standard to the righteous. This is, of course, untrue. I've stated several times on this forum my belief on what morality is. It's a shame that Christians think they are more pious and moral simply because they have the label of "Christian".

Morality is a primal trait passed down through evolution that is based on empathy and societal norms; however, so is selfishness. Christ teaches people to forgo the the innate selfishness in our DNA and focus on the more wholesome and helpful empathy.
(17-01-2012 10:36 PM)nsguy1350 Wrote:  "I am an agnostic atheist. Do you believe I am going to Hell for eternity?

So was I. The answer is no. More specifically, the answer is "I don't know". If you are elect, then your regeneration could be anytime; however, if you are not elect, yes, you are going to hell.

Quote: If so, do you think I deserve to?

All humanity is depraved and deserving of hell. God was gracious enough to save some from it.

Quote:If not, then why should I believe in the first place?"

According to my theology, you won't have a choice in the matter. You don't have a choice to believe or to not believe. You are either elect or not; thus affecting your belief.

(17-01-2012 10:43 PM)morondog Wrote:  We chirped him for this in the Calvinism thread... The answer is "yes God is a bastard" as far as I can make out, though he (God) will get pissed if you say that so it's best to shut up and hope you're not a starving child.

Ehhh, not really. My answer was I don't know why God chooses to let suffering happen. I do know it's a result of human depravity, but the reason God chooses to share His grace with some and not others is His unknown will. I cannot answer that.

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18-01-2012, 09:34 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(18-01-2012 08:38 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  Ehhh, not really. My answer was I don't know why God chooses to let suffering happen. I do know it's a result of human depravity, but the reason God chooses to share His grace with some and not others is His unknown will. I cannot answer that.

No, you don't fucking know. You think this or believe this in your demented theology, but you don't know.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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18-01-2012, 09:40 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(18-01-2012 09:34 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(18-01-2012 08:38 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  Ehhh, not really. My answer was I don't know why God chooses to let suffering happen. I do know it's a result of human depravity, but the reason God chooses to share His grace with some and not others is His unknown will. I cannot answer that.

No, you don't fucking know. You think this or believe this in your demented theology, but you don't know.

Didn't I say I don't know?

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18-01-2012, 09:50 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(18-01-2012 09:40 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(18-01-2012 09:34 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(18-01-2012 08:38 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  Ehhh, not really. My answer was I don't know why God chooses to let suffering happen. I do know it's a result of human depravity, but the reason God chooses to share His grace with some and not others is His unknown will. I cannot answer that.

No, you don't fucking know. You think this or believe this in your demented theology, but you don't know.

Didn't I say I don't know?

No, you didn't.

Quote:I do know it's a result of human depravity, ...

Human depravity? Really? Your depravity, maybe, not mine.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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18-01-2012, 10:24 AM (This post was last modified: 18-01-2012 10:27 AM by kingschosen.)
RE: Ask a Theist!
Oops, missed this. Sorry.

(18-01-2012 12:27 AM)Azaraith Wrote:  1) If the flood was local, why bother getting all the animals and birds onto the ark? Wouldn't the animals have survived anyway (elsewhere than that region, then repopulated afterwards)? Wouldn't the birds have just flown to wherever the waters stopped?

The flood was a cleansing of the area and was literal as it was symbolic. This was also the land would produce the Messianic line, so, as I understand it, God wanted to keep the line in the area. This is why Noah just didn't flee. Also, God wish to restore the area after the cleansing which is why He had the regional animals take refuge in the ark instead of fleeing.

Quote:2) What about Genesis 7:20? "The waters prevailed fifteen cubits upward, and the mountains were covered." How would the mountains be covered without the waters just spilling over, unless they were small mountains in a much, much larger basin of taller mountains? (I'm not aware of anything at all closely resembling this geological formation...)

Now, obviously, mountains aren't 22.5 feet, and I think this verse if further evidence for a regional flood. The Hebrew word is har and is *shocker* ambiguous. It is translated as mountain, hill, or hill country. Those are VASTLY different, and given the context of the verse and the other information given (22.5 feet), we can assume with great certainty that the water covered hills; not mountains.
(18-01-2012 09:50 AM)Chas Wrote:  Human depravity? Really? Your depravity, maybe, not mine.

Fair enough. But, as I view it, someone who is not depraved is without sin. Since I think all people have sinned, I see all humanity as depraved.

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18-01-2012, 03:42 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(18-01-2012 10:24 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  Oops, missed this. Sorry.

(18-01-2012 12:27 AM)Azaraith Wrote:  1) If the flood was local, why bother getting all the animals and birds onto the ark? Wouldn't the animals have survived anyway (elsewhere than that region, then repopulated afterwards)? Wouldn't the birds have just flown to wherever the waters stopped?

The flood was a cleansing of the area and was literal as it was symbolic. This was also the land would produce the Messianic line, so, as I understand it, God wanted to keep the line in the area. This is why Noah just didn't flee. Also, God wish to restore the area after the cleansing which is why He had the regional animals take refuge in the ark instead of fleeing.

Quote:2) What about Genesis 7:20? "The waters prevailed fifteen cubits upward, and the mountains were covered." How would the mountains be covered without the waters just spilling over, unless they were small mountains in a much, much larger basin of taller mountains? (I'm not aware of anything at all closely resembling this geological formation...)

Now, obviously, mountains aren't 22.5 feet, and I think this verse if further evidence for a regional flood. The Hebrew word is har and is *shocker* ambiguous. It is translated as mountain, hill, or hill country. Those are VASTLY different, and given the context of the verse and the other information given (22.5 feet), we can assume with great certainty that the water covered hills; not mountains.

Interesting. Somehow I read it as the mountains were under 15 cubits of water at their peak. Obviously 22 ft is hardly a hill, let alone a mountain... Cubits=?? to me, so I didn't think about it like that.

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18-01-2012, 05:42 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
KC i think we gonna have to be specific here Undecided
1)
(17-01-2012 09:21 PM)Reactor Wrote:  I am afraid i need a better explanation of what happened to you this day.
Did you heard voices? Did you heard thoughts? Did you saw anything? Did you heard anything? (I am not trying to offend you, i just want to understand what you experienced exactly)

How do you know that this was a higher power. I am assuming this was your first time experiencing it.
Why not a lower power or something else.
My above questions were referring to the following part of your 423 post
(16-01-2012 01:58 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Driving home from work one day, my life changed. My heart was opened to a higher power; even though I didn't know whom. I'll try my best to explain this: I found myself suddenly and sincerely praying and listening to this higher power for guidance.
I can't see how 434 post is answering any of my above questions.

2)
(17-01-2012 09:21 PM)Reactor Wrote:  
(16-01-2012 01:58 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  The higher power led me to read and study the Bible
How exactly did it led you? Was there signs, voices or just an other feeling.
Is this your answer to the above question?
(18-01-2012 08:38 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  It wasn't until I started reading the Holy Bible that things started to make sense.

If yes then How does it made sense while the others didn't? Be specific please.

And finally please be really really specific Tongue because that whould speed up our conversation and i whouldn't have to ask so many things Big Grin
(hope that does make sense)
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