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18-01-2012, 05:46 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
Why should there be a hell ?
I realize that it acts as a fearful deterrent and may help some people to behave when civil deterrents don't.
Justice is usually measured out in accordance with the crime.
I could see Hitler serving a sentence in hell for 6 million dips in a volcanic lava pit that would burn him each day, but really what purpose does it serve ?

If I let my children do whatever they wanted for the first 10 years of their lives and kept track of everything they did that I deemed bad, knowing that on their 10th birthday, I would whip them once for every deed in the past 10 years, what would that accomplish ? More than likely they would die in the process. Did I teach them anything ? Did the threat of beating deter them from any of their actions ? After all. I never once stopped them from doing anything bad, I just kept track and watched and waited and waited, until the day came when I could unleash my fury upon them and give them torture and terror.

What kind of being would do such a thing ? Well according to Christian theology, their god does.

When someone in our society breaks the law, we have a number of various things we can do that lets them know that they shouldn't do that again.
If I speed on the highway, i might get a ticket. We ticket people to help avoid larger accidents that can cause a great deal of harm in the future.
If people were allowed to drive as fast as they wanted, it will cause more highway deaths and create unnecessary suffering.

What if the punishment for speeding was torture for the rest of your life, until you died ?
Not just killing you on the spot, but torturing you. What does that accomplish ?

What if god only created hell and then created people to suffer in hell for all eternity ? What then ?
If that was all any creature ever knew was suffering and torture, without end for all time, what then ?

What kind of being would your god be then ? because that's what he's done. That's what you believe he is.
You believe he creates people knowing that they will spend an eternity in hell.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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18-01-2012, 06:49 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(18-01-2012 08:38 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(17-01-2012 06:45 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  I got no problem with that. As a hypogonadal man I've been on the steroid forums for years and I've seen how the collective anecdotal evidence of steroid users over the years and decades have influenced and even driven experimental ideas and designs. Often, anecdotal evidence is all we have to start with. Wink

I know you don't; however, there are others that don't see it that way. If I'm going to effectively communicate with them, I have to speak in a language that they can understand and accept.

Feels like a fool's errand to me. You got your metaphysics, I got my metaphysics, and neither one is supported by anything other than anecdotal personal evidence and flimsy rationalizations. Feels like a mistake to try and conflate physics with metaphysics. One is well-defined and collectively agreed upon and the other is intimately personal and individual. All effective communication requires is not conflating the two.

#sigh
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18-01-2012, 07:07 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(18-01-2012 10:24 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  Fair enough. But, as I view it, someone who is not depraved is without sin. Since I think all people have sinned, I see all humanity as depraved.

Just so we're clear.
The definition of "depraved" doesn't really fit "all humanity", but since you base your system of thought on stuff written 2,000 years ago, I can see where you might need to catch up a bit.

So, here is what the first, most common definition:
"...deviating from what is considered moral or right or proper or good; "depraved criminals".
ALL of humanity is this way? Really? ("but Eve started it..."...sigh)
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18-01-2012, 10:53 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(18-01-2012 07:07 PM)TalladegaTom Wrote:  So, here is what the first, most common definition:
"...deviating from what is considered moral or right or proper or good; "depraved criminals".
ALL of humanity is this way? Really? ("but Eve started it..."...sigh)

She had *no right* to munch that apple! None! Bitch Angry

...


Dodgy

Hey KC, since original sin don't enter into your theology (right?) what's the deal with the story of Adam and Eve and Eve leading Adam into sin for which she gets punished? Why even include it in the Bible?

God sure does move in ultra mysterious ways Tongue
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18-01-2012, 11:17 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(18-01-2012 10:53 PM)morondog Wrote:  She had *no right* to munch that apple! None! Bitch Angry

God sure does move in ultra mysterious ways Tongue

Boy, he sure does.

I feel sorry for Eve though. Really I do. I'd kiss that hottie if I had the chance.
She doesn't deserve 1/2 the crap people give her. Confused
I consider her pretty dang smart, and with bigger gonads than Adam too I'm afraid.
Here is a Woman who is simply curious about the world she is living in.
She was simply seeking knowledge.
For that, she damns herself, her husband and all of humanity forever.

God moves in ultra mysterious ways indeed. Angel
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19-01-2012, 05:56 AM (This post was last modified: 19-01-2012 06:10 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Ask a Theist!
(18-01-2012 11:17 PM)TalladegaTom Wrote:  
(18-01-2012 10:53 PM)morondog Wrote:  She had *no right* to munch that apple! None! Bitch Angry

God sure does move in ultra mysterious ways Tongue

Boy, he sure does.

I feel sorry for Eve though. Really I do. I'd kiss that hottie if I had the chance.
She doesn't deserve 1/2 the crap people give her. Confused
I consider her pretty dang smart, and with bigger gonads than Adam too I'm afraid.
Here is a Woman who is simply curious about the world she is living in.
She was simply seeking knowledge.
For that, she damns herself, her husband and all of humanity forever.

God moves in ultra mysterious ways indeed. Angel

Unless, what if, just maybe, it has NOTHING to do with eating apples. Maybe, just as other Ancient Near Eastern mythologies, (see Marduck slaying the "dragon of chaos"), the garden myth has to do with the "encompassing of opposites", (ie they couldn't BOTH eat the apple AND not eat the apple ).. nice simple little example for simple illiterate nomadic / early non scientific people .. it's chaos and order, NOT "good and evil". What if the ancient myth has been overlaid by later cultural worldviews and "literal" interpretations by people who never understood the non-literal nature of "mythology" ? Then the whole thng looks a bit different, (that particular myth anyway)...which was one of the very last of those texts to be "assembled", when they needed a "national story" to keep some sort of political cohesion during a period of "national crisis", (the Babylonian invasion and defeat, and exile). Without the historical facts and context, it is impossible to talk about it. Ever read the DEVELOPMENT of the concept of "hell", where it started, and all it's many iterations ? It's the same thing. No way anyone could take it literally after reading ALL the many antecedant versions, and knows it's historical context. As anything else, It's a problem of EDUCATION. I can't "fix" that for them if they can't/won't do the work. It's also the same with Calvinism. All the the 5 "points" have been debated and dismissed, in general, each for various reasons, as MISINTERPRETATIONS. And the business of the front loaded justification/necessity of the "redemption" event, ((which is NOW a "spiritual" INTERPRETATION, of of POLITICAL event, (a "messiah")) by making sin/evil a necessity is NOT a "christian" concept. What you're getting here is an individual's opinion, which is shared by NO ONE that I have ever spoken to about these things, (or at least had as a teacher in a mainline university).

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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19-01-2012, 06:14 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(19-01-2012 05:56 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Unless, what if, just maybe, it has NOTHING to do with eating apples. Maybe, just as other Ancient Near Eastern mythologies, (see Marduck slaying the "dragon of chaos"), the garden myth has to do with the "encompassing of opposites", (ie they couldn't BOTH eat the apple AND not eat the apple ).. nice simple little example for simple illiterate nomadic / early non scientific people ..

Buckminster Fullerene you insufferable know it all!
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19-01-2012, 10:11 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(18-01-2012 05:42 PM)Reactor Wrote:  How do you know that this was a higher power. I am assuming this was your first time experiencing it.
Why not a lower power or something else.

It was a sudden change in what I believed. It was something that was leading me to search for an answer to what just happened to me. I would have never made this type of choice on my own because I despised the thought or belief in the supernatural.


(17-01-2012 09:21 PM)Reactor Wrote:  How exactly did it led you? Was there signs, voices or just an other feeling.

If yes then How does it made sense while the others didn't? Be specific please.

Like I said, I was looking for an answer to what had happened to me. I read the other holy/instruction books to no avail. When I finally made it to the Bible, I began reading Ephesians and Romans and suddenly things became very apparent to me.

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19-01-2012, 10:14 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(19-01-2012 10:11 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  Like I said, I was looking for an answer to what had happened to me. I read the other holy/instruction books to no avail. When I finally made it to the Bible, I began reading Ephesians and Romans and suddenly things became very apparent to me.

And had you picked up a different book that resonated with you, you would be convinced you were whatever that book said.

But you won't know, because you stopped looking.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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19-01-2012, 11:19 AM (This post was last modified: 19-01-2012 11:27 AM by kingschosen.)
RE: Ask a Theist!
(18-01-2012 05:46 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  Why should there be a hell ?

Since the Son's purpose was decided before the beginning, sin had to be allowed, thus entering the need for hell. Not all can be saved from hell because that would deem the Son's purpose moot.

Quote:I realize that it acts as a fearful deterrent and may help some people to behave when civil deterrents don't.
Justice is usually measured out in accordance with the crime.
I could see Hitler serving a sentence in hell for 6 million dips in a volcanic lava pit that would burn him each day, but really what purpose does it serve ?

If I let my children do whatever they wanted for the first 10 years of their lives and kept track of everything they did that I deemed bad, knowing that on their 10th birthday, I would whip them once for every deed in the past 10 years, what would that accomplish ? More than likely they would die in the process. Did I teach them anything ? Did the threat of beating deter them from any of their actions ? After all. I never once stopped them from doing anything bad, I just kept track and watched and waited and waited, until the day came when I could unleash my fury upon them and give them torture and terror.

What kind of being would do such a thing ? Well according to Christian theology, their god does.

When someone in our society breaks the law, we have a number of various things we can do that lets them know that they shouldn't do that again.
If I speed on the highway, i might get a ticket. We ticket people to help avoid larger accidents that can cause a great deal of harm in the future.
If people were allowed to drive as fast as they wanted, it will cause more highway deaths and create unnecessary suffering.

What if the punishment for speeding was torture for the rest of your life, until you died ?
Not just killing you on the spot, but torturing you. What does that accomplish ?

What if god only created hell and then created people to suffer in hell for all eternity ? What then ?
If that was all any creature ever knew was suffering and torture, without end for all time, what then ?

What kind of being would your god be then ? because that's what he's done. That's what you believe he is.
You believe he creates people knowing that they will spend an eternity in hell.

While appreciate your opinion, this is off topic and in clear violation of Ground Rules #1, #B, and #5. I feel that this topic is veering off course because questions are being disguised as rants. If you want to discuss why you disagree with the concept of the Christian hell then you should make a topic about it.

Also, please don't take this a personal attack, it just so happens that I'm using your post as an example. I believe you're innocent in the fact that you didn't mean to veer off topic, but I just want to keep this topic grounded and use it for what it was made for.

Thank you for understanding.
(18-01-2012 06:49 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(18-01-2012 08:38 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(17-01-2012 06:45 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  I got no problem with that. As a hypogonadal man I've been on the steroid forums for years and I've seen how the collective anecdotal evidence of steroid users over the years and decades have influenced and even driven experimental ideas and designs. Often, anecdotal evidence is all we have to start with. Wink

I know you don't; however, there are others that don't see it that way. If I'm going to effectively communicate with them, I have to speak in a language that they can understand and accept.

Feels like a fool's errand to me. You got your metaphysics, I got my metaphysics, and neither one is supported by anything other than anecdotal personal evidence and flimsy rationalizations. Feels like a mistake to try and conflate physics with metaphysics. One is well-defined and collectively agreed upon and the other is intimately personal and individual. All effective communication requires is not conflating the two.

Well, yeah... but who's fault is that? If people refuse my evidence and still wish to communicate, then one of us has to try to "speak the language".
(18-01-2012 10:53 PM)morondog Wrote:  Hey KC, since original sin don't enter into your theology (right?) what's the deal with the story of Adam and Eve and Eve leading Adam into sin for which she gets punished? Why even include it in the Bible?

God sure does move in ultra mysterious ways Tongue

Well, that goes back to the creation story of Genesis. God's imparting of His image upon humanity gave us the knowledge of good and evil thus giving us the ability to sin. Remember, the figurative Adam was a representation of humanity and how sin entered humanity.
(19-01-2012 10:14 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(19-01-2012 10:11 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  Like I said, I was looking for an answer to what had happened to me. I read the other holy/instruction books to no avail. When I finally made it to the Bible, I began reading Ephesians and Romans and suddenly things became very apparent to me.

And had you picked up a different book that resonated with you, you would be convinced you were whatever that book said.

But you won't know, because you stopped looking.

I did. I went through the gamut of holy books.

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