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19-01-2012, 12:25 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(19-01-2012 10:11 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  I would have never made this type of choice on my own because I despised the thought or belief in the supernatural.
Did your ruled out the fact that it might be a medical or a mental condition that's affecting your brain by visiting a psychologist or some other doctors before thinking supernatural(higher power) is the cause?


(19-01-2012 10:11 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(17-01-2012 09:21 PM)Reactor Wrote:  
(16-01-2012 01:58 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  The higher power led me to read and study the Bible
How exactly did it led you? Was there signs, voices or just an other feeling.
When I finally made it to the Bible, I began reading Ephesians and Romans and suddenly things became very apparent to me.
So the higher power led you to read the Bible by making the Bible to make sense to you after you read it? Which means that you first read the Bible and then the higher power led you to read it. That doesn't make sense to me.
Maybe an outsider can explain me KC's view because I just can't see how does this is answering my question or even make sense.
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19-01-2012, 12:29 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(19-01-2012 12:25 PM)Reactor Wrote:  
(19-01-2012 10:11 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  I would have never made this type of choice on my own because I despised the thought or belief in the supernatural.
Did your ruled out the fact that it might be a medical or a mental condition that's affecting your brain by visiting a psychologist or some other doctors before thinking supernatural(higher power) is the cause?

Yes

Quote:
(19-01-2012 10:11 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(17-01-2012 09:21 PM)Reactor Wrote:  
(16-01-2012 01:58 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  The higher power led me to read and study the Bible
How exactly did it led you? Was there signs, voices or just an other feeling.
When I finally made it to the Bible, I began reading Ephesians and Romans and suddenly things became very apparent to me.
So the higher power led you to read the Bible by making the Bible to make sense to you after you read it? Which means that you first read the Bible and then the higher power led you to read it. That doesn't make sense to me.
Maybe an outsider can explain me KC's view because I just can't see how does this is answering my question or even make sense.

No, the Bible answered my questions as to why this had happened to me. I'm a Calvinist: I believe I have no choice in my salvation. I believe that God chose me for salvation.

When my regeneration happened, I knew something had happened, but I didn't know what. This is where the Bible came in - it explained to me what had happened.

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19-01-2012, 01:02 PM (This post was last modified: 19-01-2012 01:13 PM by Reactor.)
RE: Ask a Theist!
1)
(19-01-2012 12:29 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(19-01-2012 12:25 PM)Reactor Wrote:  
(19-01-2012 10:11 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  I would have never made this type of choice on my own because I despised the thought or belief in the supernatural.
Did your ruled out the fact that it might be a medical or a mental condition that's affecting your brain by visiting a psychologist or some other doctors before thinking supernatural(higher power) is the cause?
Yes
Why you think this is not a ghost or a "bad" god or just an other supernatural creature that is playing with your mind and by making you read all these staff to waste your time just to satisfy itself? How you are so sure that it's this one God that you believe in and not some sick supernatural joke that's happening to you?

2)
(19-01-2012 12:29 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(19-01-2012 12:25 PM)Reactor Wrote:  
(19-01-2012 10:11 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(17-01-2012 09:21 PM)Reactor Wrote:  
(16-01-2012 01:58 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  The higher power led me to read and study the Bible
How exactly did it led you? Was there signs, voices or just an other feeling.
When I finally made it to the Bible, I began reading Ephesians and Romans and suddenly things became very apparent to me.
So the higher power led you to read the Bible by making the Bible to make sense to you after you read it? Which means that you first read the Bible and then the higher power led you to read it. That doesn't make sense to me.
Maybe an outsider can explain me KC's view because I just can't see how does this is answering my question or even make sense.
No, the Bible answered my questions as to why this had happened to me. I'm a Calvinist: I believe I have no choice in my salvation. I believe that God chose me for salvation.

When my regeneration happened, I knew something had happened, but I didn't know what. This is where the Bible came in - it explained to me what had happened.
I think i found the connection you make in your mind about what you said "The higher power led me to read and study the Bible"

Driving home from work Higher Power does something to you.
You look for answers in the Bible to understand what happen.
Therefore Higher Power is responsible for making you read the Bible.
So after everything happened you realized that Higher Power was leading you to this path.
Am I right? Big Grin
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19-01-2012, 01:28 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(19-01-2012 01:02 PM)Reactor Wrote:  I think i found the connection you make in your mind about what you said "The higher power led me to read and study the Bible"

Driving home from work Higher Power does something to you.
You look for answers in the Bible to understand what happen.
Therefore Higher Power is responsible for making you read the Bible.
So after everything happened you realized that Higher Power was leading you to this path.
Am I right? Big Grin

Yes, I guess you could say it like that.

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19-01-2012, 03:34 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(19-01-2012 05:56 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  What you're getting here is an individual's opinion, which is shared by NO ONE that I have ever spoken to about these things, (or at least had as a teacher in a mainline university).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegorical...of_Genesis

More specifically:
Pope John Paul II wrote to the Pontifical Academy of Sciences on the subject of cosmology and how to interpret Genesis:

Cosmogony and cosmology have always aroused great interest among peoples and religions. The Bible itself speaks to us of the origin of the universe and its make-up, not in order to provide us with a scientific treatise, but in order to state the correct relationships of man with God and with the universe. Sacred Scripture wishes simply to declare that the world was created by God, and in order to teach this truth it expresses itself in the terms of the cosmology in use at the time of the writer. The Sacred Book likewise wishes to tell men that the world was not created as the seat of the gods, as was taught by other cosmogonies and cosmologies, but was rather created for the service of man and the glory of God. Any other teaching about the origin and make-up of the universe is alien to the intentions of the Bible, which does not wish to teach how heaven was made but how one goes to heaven.

The "Clergy Letter" Project, drafted in 2004, and signed by thousands of Christian clergy supporting science and faith, states:

We the undersigned, Christian clergy from many different traditions, believe that the timeless truths of the Bible and the discoveries of modern science may comfortably coexist. We believe that the theory of evolution is a foundational scientific truth, one that has stood up to rigorous scrutiny and upon which much of human knowledge and achievement rests. To reject this truth or to treat it as 'one theory among others' is to deliberately embrace scientific ignorance and transmit such ignorance to our children. We believe that among God’s good gifts are human minds capable of critical thought and that the failure to fully employ this gift is a rejection of the will of our Creator.

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19-01-2012, 03:45 PM
Yo, KC! Are you ignoring me?
(19-01-2012 10:14 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(19-01-2012 10:11 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  Like I said, I was looking for an answer to what had happened to me. I read the other holy/instruction books to no avail. When I finally made it to the Bible, I began reading Ephesians and Romans and suddenly things became very apparent to me.

And had you picked up a different book that resonated with you, you would be convinced you were whatever that book said.

But you won't know, because you stopped looking.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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19-01-2012, 03:57 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
Thanks for the reply KC, sorry it took so long to reply but you know how that goes.

As for a few other points I want to discuss, let's start with the quote from Corinthians. When I read such a quote, I can't help but think that it is inaccurate in every sense of the word. That does not mean it is not worded well, and I could see how such a quote could be seen as inspirational, but we live in a time where we can see more of the universe than ever and we can detect even more of it via other means. We know that simply being unable to observe something does not mean it is infinite and being unable to detect something only alludes to it not existing. Even protons naturally decay and at some point far into the future, even the last proton will decay and all matter will cease to exist. So, even matter has a finite amount of time in which to exist, so in many ways all the things are temporary.

As for your "180 degree turn" from your past as "anti-god", being "anti-god" seems to imply to me that you were still a believer in god at that point. In order to be anti-anything, one must believe that thing exists. I am not anti-god as an atheist, it is impossible for me to be against something I do not believe exists. I guess the point that I am trying to get at is that as a "6.5" you were still a theist that was angry at religion and it would appear that you were more specifically angry at chrisitanity. Needless to say, I am not trying to imply that I knew your thoughts and feelings better than you do, but one of my original questions/suggestions still seems unanswered in light of this. That is, have you ever actually considered a universe in which no-god exists? Not being against god, but simply saying "If no god were to exist, would the universe continue to operate as it does or would it be expected to operate differently?"

I often times put back on my theist "glasses" when evaluating an argument and then I put back on my atheist "glasses" to look at it again. I do this in an attempt to understand as much of the argument as I can. What I found when looking at the universe was that the universe looked exactly the same through both sets of "glasses." The obvious question of "What does that mean?" followed logically.

I pose this question to you because I wonder:
If you would expect a universe without a god to operate differently, how would a god-less universe be expected to operate?

If you would expect a god-free universe and a universe with god to behave the same way, then what purpose does god have?

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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19-01-2012, 04:20 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(19-01-2012 03:34 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(19-01-2012 05:56 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  What you're getting here is an individual's opinion, which is shared by NO ONE that I have ever spoken to about these things, (or at least had as a teacher in a mainline university).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegorical...of_Genesis

More specifically:
Pope John Paul II wrote to the Pontifical Academy of Sciences on the subject of cosmology and how to interpret Genesis:

Cosmogony and cosmology have always aroused great interest among peoples and religions. The Bible itself speaks to us of the origin of the universe and its make-up, not in order to provide us with a scientific treatise, but in order to state the correct relationships of man with God and with the universe. Sacred Scripture wishes simply to declare that the world was created by God, and in order to teach this truth it expresses itself in the terms of the cosmology in use at the time of the writer. The Sacred Book likewise wishes to tell men that the world was not created as the seat of the gods, as was taught by other cosmogonies and cosmologies, but was rather created for the service of man and the glory of God. Any other teaching about the origin and make-up of the universe is alien to the intentions of the Bible, which does not wish to teach how heaven was made but how one goes to heaven.

The "Clergy Letter" Project, drafted in 2004, and signed by thousands of Christian clergy supporting science and faith, states:

We the undersigned, Christian clergy from many different traditions, believe that the timeless truths of the Bible and the discoveries of modern science may comfortably coexist. We believe that the theory of evolution is a foundational scientific truth, one that has stood up to rigorous scrutiny and upon which much of human knowledge and achievement rests. To reject this truth or to treat it as 'one theory among others' is to deliberately embrace scientific ignorance and transmit such ignorance to our children. We believe that among God’s good gifts are human minds capable of critical thought and that the failure to fully employ this gift is a rejection of the will of our Creator.

KC
Sorry sir, I should have been MUCH more specific. I don't disagree that many mainliners don't dispute, (some) science. I only disagree with you about the "humanity being the purpose of the son" part, (being "mainline"). Isn't that like saying "I'm going to cut my finger to give the ER doc something to do" ? Sounds very backwards to me. Is THAT part of Calvinism ? (I really don't know precisely what Calvinists think about things.) I need to read some about that.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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19-01-2012, 05:48 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
Ok. Not to rain on KC's parade Big Grin but check this out. It's a freaking gold mine:

http://www.reasonablefaith.org/site/Page...sage_board

Under cover Ask a Theist anyone??

By the way, thanks KC, you have much more patience than I do. That's for sure.

In science, "fact" can only mean "confirmed to such a degree that it would be perverse to withhold provisional assent." I suppose that apples might start to rise tomorrow, but the possibility does not merit equal time in physics classrooms.

--Stephen Jay Gould
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19-01-2012, 06:55 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(19-01-2012 11:19 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(18-01-2012 06:49 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(18-01-2012 08:38 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(17-01-2012 06:45 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  I got no problem with that. As a hypogonadal man I've been on the steroid forums for years and I've seen how the collective anecdotal evidence of steroid users over the years and decades have influenced and even driven experimental ideas and designs. Often, anecdotal evidence is all we have to start with. Wink

I know you don't; however, there are others that don't see it that way. If I'm going to effectively communicate with them, I have to speak in a language that they can understand and accept.

Feels like a fool's errand to me. You got your metaphysics, I got my metaphysics, and neither one is supported by anything other than anecdotal personal evidence and flimsy rationalizations. Feels like a mistake to try and conflate physics with metaphysics. One is well-defined and collectively agreed upon and the other is intimately personal and individual. All effective communication requires is not conflating the two.

Well, yeah... but who's fault is that? If people refuse my evidence and still wish to communicate, then one of us has to try to "speak the language".

You must have HoC on your Ignore list. Wink

#sigh
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