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20-01-2012, 09:59 AM (This post was last modified: 20-01-2012 10:15 AM by kingschosen.)
RE: Ask a Theist!
(19-01-2012 03:57 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  As for a few other points I want to discuss, let's start with the quote from Corinthians. When I read such a quote, I can't help but think that it is inaccurate in every sense of the word. That does not mean it is not worded well, and I could see how such a quote could be seen as inspirational, but we live in a time where we can see more of the universe than ever and we can detect even more of it via other means. We know that simply being unable to observe something does not mean it is infinite and being unable to detect something only alludes to it not existing. Even protons naturally decay and at some point far into the future, even the last proton will decay and all matter will cease to exist. So, even matter has a finite amount of time in which to exist, so in many ways all the things are temporary.

Your response is fascinating. It really is. It's not wrong. You just see it differently. You read the words in their most literal sense and analyze them that way. This concept and way of thinking is completely normal. However, I look at this verse and see it for it's spiritual sense. Again, not wrong; just different. You see, I don't view the words as literally meaning "seen" and "unseen", but as "seen" being everything we know in our humanity/life and "unseen" as everything we will know in our afterlife. You see, this verse, taken spiritually is saying "Persist through this life because it's only for a short time. Keep your mind on God and remember that your life after death in heaven will be eternal."

It's just crazy how two different interpretations can drastically change the meaning.

Quote:As for your "180 degree turn" from your past as "anti-god", being "anti-god" seems to imply to me that you were still a believer in god at that point. In order to be anti-anything, one must believe that thing exists. I am not anti-god as an atheist, it is impossible for me to be against something I do not believe exists. I guess the point that I am trying to get at is that as a "6.5" you were still a theist that was angry at religion and it would appear that you were more specifically angry at chrisitanity. Needless to say, I am not trying to imply that I knew your thoughts and feelings better than you do, but one of my original questions/suggestions still seems unanswered in light of this.

That's a good point, but I think what I was trying to say is that I was anti-religion and anti-Christianity. I hated the religion and the belief that it imposed on people. So, I took action against it.

Quote:That is, have you ever actually considered a universe in which no-god exists? Not being against god, but simply saying "If no god were to exist, would the universe continue to operate as it does or would it be expected to operate differently?"

I often times put back on my theist "glasses" when evaluating an argument and then I put back on my atheist "glasses" to look at it again. I do this in an attempt to understand as much of the argument as I can. What I found when looking at the universe was that the universe looked exactly the same through both sets of "glasses." The obvious question of "What does that mean?" followed logically.

I pose this question to you because I wonder:
If you would expect a universe without a god to operate differently, how would a god-less universe be expected to operate?

If you would expect a god-free universe and a universe with god to behave the same way, then what purpose does god have?

I think the concept of God and religion would not exist. I think people would try to explain things that they did not understand; however, it would be done from a logical and rational point of view instead of a supernatural point of view.
(19-01-2012 04:20 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  KC
Sorry sir, I should have been MUCH more specific. I don't disagree that many mainliners don't dispute, (some) science. I only disagree with you about the "humanity being the purpose of the son" part, (being "mainline"). Isn't that like saying "I'm going to cut my finger to give the ER doc something to do" ? Sounds very backwards to me. Is THAT part of Calvinism ? (I really don't know precisely what Calvinists think about things.) I need to read some about that.

I'm not sure if it's part of the mainstream Calvinist view. I'll have to look.
(19-01-2012 05:48 PM)scientician Wrote:  Ok. Not to rain on KC's parade Big Grin but check this out. It's a freaking gold mine:

http://www.reasonablefaith.org/site/Page...sage_board

Under cover Ask a Theist anyone??

By the way, thanks KC, you have much more patience than I do. That's for sure.

haha, thanks.

I just like good discussion Smile
(19-01-2012 06:55 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  You must have HoC on your Ignore list. Wink

Is it weird I can understand Doc Hoc?

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20-01-2012, 11:10 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
Spin baby spin. (so much delusion, so little time)
C'mon KC, without being accused of "stalking" or anything, you really fit the delusional role well.
You say that the "way of thinking is completely normal. However, I look at this verse and see it for it's spiritual sense. Again, not wrong; just different."

Nah. You're wrong.
You prefer the abnormal approach then? The way to understand spirituality is to think about these verses while in an abnormal mental state. Got it.
(There's the first hint of a theist thought method. Cool!)
You read things with god bias only comprehending what meets your desire. No more, no less.

"It's just crazy how two different interpretations can drastically change the meaning."

What is crazy is that some folks refuse to think within the limits of reason and spin themselves, and as many as they can drag along with them, down into the murky depths of thought without thinking.
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20-01-2012, 11:14 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(20-01-2012 11:10 AM)TalladegaTom Wrote:  Spin baby spin. (so much delusion, so little time)
C'mon KC, without being accused of "stalking" or anything, you really fit the delusional role well.
You say that the "way of thinking is completely normal. However, I look at this verse and see it for it's spiritual sense. Again, not wrong; just different."

Nah. You're wrong.
You prefer the abnormal approach then? The way to understand spirituality is to think about these verses while in an abnormal mental state. Got it.
(There's the first hint of a theist thought method. Cool!)
You read things with god bias only comprehending what meets your desire. No more, no less.

"It's just crazy how two different interpretations can drastically change the meaning."

What is crazy is that some folks refuse to think within the limits of reason and spin themselves, and as many as they can drag along with them, down into the murky depths of thought without thinking.

You have no concept of language and context.

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20-01-2012, 11:24 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(20-01-2012 11:14 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  You have no concept of language and context.

Pfft.
Allow me to add some context.
You have that Revelation quote up like it is some kind of pledge of goodness.
Good graciousness my back side!
The last verse of the bible sounds all fluffy and nice until you realize god is saying that after it just destroyed every living thing that ever was. Ahhh.... how pleasant.
Context. Yeah, it's all about context.

"Revelation 22:21 - The grace of the Lord Jesus be with all...who is leftover."
There. Fixed it for ya.
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20-01-2012, 11:57 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(19-01-2012 01:02 PM)Reactor Wrote:  link
KC i think you missed the 1) part of my last post. I'd like a response if you may.
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20-01-2012, 12:04 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(19-01-2012 01:02 PM)Reactor Wrote:  Why you think this is not a ghost or a "bad" god or just an other supernatural creature that is playing with your mind and by making you read all these staff to waste your time just to satisfy itself? How you are so sure that it's this one God that you believe in and not some sick supernatural joke that's happening to you?

Good question.

There is, of course, no way to answer that; however, isn't that reality relative to my own perception?

If I'm convinced that it's the Christian God leading me, then whether or not it's malevolent is irrelevant; since, I know no differently and/or will never know differently. My perception is that the god is good, so therefore, it is good even though it may be bad. The only way it can become bad to me is if my perception is changed. If the god decides to guise itself as good for my earthly life, then it is good because I can't perceive it any differently.

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20-01-2012, 12:11 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
So, you think the only difference between a universe with god and a universe without god is that the concept of god would not exist among humans? If this is the case, then why do concepts of other things that do not actually exist still persist? Unicorns, fairies, monsters, an Earthcentric view of the solar system, the world being carried on the back of a giant turtle, etc. Humans have an imagination, scratch that, animals have an imagination (I watch my cat play with toys and I come to the realization that it knows it is not alive but it imagines it is so it can play with it). Part of that imagination is the construction of things that do not necessarily exist. So, if a universe without god would have no concept of god, then it would be a universe where things cannot be imagined. And, if imagination is evidence for the existence of something, then why is a disbelief in the things I mentioned above so high?

I also agree that it is rather fascinating that different people can read something differently, but that is not all that surprising in this case. A story that is at best for interpretation only will have many different interpretations, but the thing about truth is that it is not subject to interpretation, only realization.

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20-01-2012, 02:51 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(20-01-2012 12:11 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  So, you think the only difference between a universe with god and a universe without god is that the concept of god would not exist among humans? If this is the case, then why do concepts of other things that do not actually exist still persist? Unicorns, fairies, monsters, an Earthcentric view of the solar system, the world being carried on the back of a giant turtle, etc. Humans have an imagination, scratch that, animals have an imagination (I watch my cat play with toys and I come to the realization that it knows it is not alive but it imagines it is so it can play with it). Part of that imagination is the construction of things that do not necessarily exist. So, if a universe without god would have no concept of god, then it would be a universe where things cannot be imagined. And, if imagination is evidence for the existence of something, then why is a disbelief in the things I mentioned above so high?

The concepts persist, but, for the most part, they are widely regarded as fantasy. Now, I know you could say the same thing for Christianity, but I believe its constant persistence and longevity is divine. The reason the other myths are eventually not believed or considered myth is because that is what they are. It would be normal for humanity to create these myths and believe them... to an extent... for a limited time. But, for a myth to continue to persist and actually thrive into an age of advanced technology and enlightenment goes a bit against the grain, don't you say?

But, back to what I think about a world with no god:

Yes, it would eventually be dismissed and not be allowed to thrive simply because of the eventual acceptance that it was false. Without some type of divine influence, I think actually believing a myth and allowing it to continue to thrive for such an extended amount of time goes against what is normal for human evolution.

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20-01-2012, 03:28 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(20-01-2012 02:51 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(20-01-2012 12:11 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  So, you think the only difference between a universe with god and a universe without god is that the concept of god would not exist among humans? If this is the case, then why do concepts of other things that do not actually exist still persist? Unicorns, fairies, monsters, an Earthcentric view of the solar system, the world being carried on the back of a giant turtle, etc. Humans have an imagination, scratch that, animals have an imagination (I watch my cat play with toys and I come to the realization that it knows it is not alive but it imagines it is so it can play with it). Part of that imagination is the construction of things that do not necessarily exist. So, if a universe without god would have no concept of god, then it would be a universe where things cannot be imagined. And, if imagination is evidence for the existence of something, then why is a disbelief in the things I mentioned above so high?

The concepts persist, but, for the most part, they are widely regarded as fantasy. Now, I know you could say the same thing for Christianity, but I believe its constant persistence and longevity is divine. The reason the other myths are eventually not believed or considered myth is because that is what they are. It would be normal for humanity to create these myths and believe them... to an extent... for a limited time. But, for a myth to continue to persist and actually thrive into an age of advanced technology and enlightenment goes a bit against the grain, don't you say?

But, back to what I think about a world with no god:

Yes, it would eventually be dismissed and not be allowed to thrive simply because of the eventual acceptance that it was false. Without some type of divine influence, I think actually believing a myth and allowing it to continue to thrive for such an extended amount of time goes against what is normal for human evolution.

If you're going to use persistence, Christianity is sucking hind tit.
Hinduism is at least 6000 years old. So it is more true than Christianity.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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20-01-2012, 03:44 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
I have to agree with Chas here because there are many other pagan myths that have persisted much longer. Some of which even appear to be part of the inspiration for stories in the Bible (the creation story of man being made from the dirt for one)

Persistence and acceptance of something like astrology also still exists and is also much older than Christianity. I have friends of mine who don't believe in god but still believe in astrology, despite the fact that there is as much proof for both of them and that we live in this world of advanced technology. (look at ghosts and psychics too. Otherwise logical people cling to these beliefs despite no logical reason to do so) I think persistence of an idea is not an indication of any divinity but rather one of 2 things. The first is a desire to believe it. Astrology fits into this category of "I want it to be so" and such things remain a part of our culture because we want it to. The second is truth and fact. Something that is demonstrably true remains around forever and can be discovered and rediscovered.

The difference here is that things in the first category will die along with humans when we become extinct, but if we lost EVERY piece of truth and fact discovered via science, it could be rediscovered exactly as is by another intelligent being. Myth would potentially reemerge, but never the same. The differences between all of the modern myths are a testament to that.

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