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28-01-2012, 12:00 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
If Kingschosen understands and agrees with all of the things he "doesn't choose to believe", then he's got serious fucking issues and we shouldn't be praising him for being an ignorant simpleton. I don't care if he answers 5000 more questions because you people aren't getting any decent answers and it's just a waste of time.

KC, you're a fool.

Enough said.
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28-01-2012, 12:36 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(28-01-2012 12:00 AM)ElectricEthan Wrote:  If Kingschosen understands and agrees with all of the things he "doesn't choose to believe", then he's got serious fucking issues and we shouldn't be praising him for being an ignorant simpleton. I don't care if he answers 5000 more questions because you people aren't getting any decent answers and it's just a waste of time.

KC, you're a fool.

Enough said.

Hmmm. It's fun as far as I'm concerned. You want I should skip this whole thread huh? Then KC cannot discuss with us because we're all these big heavy thinkers with sticks up our asses who won't talk to him 'cos he's a fool. Oh but we will take time out of our day to tell him he's a fool. Yeah, that's real openness right there. Dodgy
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28-01-2012, 05:13 AM (This post was last modified: 28-01-2012 05:24 AM by Jeff.)
RE: Ask a Theist!
(27-01-2012 12:55 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  No. By default, since they weren't elect, they were damned to hell. The damnation is passive.

Hmmmm. This is like trying to say "I didn't starve my children, I just didn't feed them." What point are you making by saying that god doesn't send them to hell, he just doesn't send them to heaven? When god makes the list, he either puts you on the heaven track or leaves you with the default hell track. To say that it's passive is a distinction without a difference. Why do you want to avoid saying that god "sends them" to hell?

Also, please clarify whether god created hell or not, and if so, was it deliberate? If the answer is yes, and if it was deliberate, please square this with your idea that god is passive with regard to someone going to hell. If it was not deliberate, please clarify whether god is able to make a mistake. If he did not create hell, please explain who did.

Also, just checking on your version of hell. Is it a place of everlasting horrible pain? Or are you more in the "it's a rundown Holiday Inn" versus the Four Seasons resort that you're heading to? I'm of Italian descent so I agree with the Soprano's that hell is an Irish bar on St. Patty's day (joke, I don't believe in any afterlife)

Quote:And then last question - how did you find out that you are elect?
(27-01-2012 12:55 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Because I believe.

Please clarify this statement. Are any of these the correct interpretation?

1. I believe because I believe - basically a circular statement suggesting you are not interested in clarifying

2. I am elect due to my belief - this seems to contradict your belief that god made a list, which would have been made long before your belief.

3. My belief is the indicator that I am elect - you are saying that this is how you know that you are elect, because you are a believer. All believers are elect, that's why they are believers. All atheists are non-elect by definition, because if they were elect, they'd be believers, not atheists.

4. Something else


(27-01-2012 12:55 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  I could not believe in God without God acting upon me.

Again please clarify what this means - is it one of the following?

A) I could not believe in god unless I also believed that god acts upon me - no causation here, just pairing up the ideas that there is a god, and that god acts upon everyone. If you're saying that god only acts upon the elect, please state that.

B) It is god acting upon me that causes my belief - circular reasoning that says I believe in god because I believe that god acts upon me - netting out to I believe in god because I believe in god.

C) There's no point in believing in god unless I also believe that god is acting upon me - so for example, the following statement could not be true "I could believe in god without god acting upon me."



(27-01-2012 12:55 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  My depraved human nature prevents it..

I'm wondering what was suggested by this. Was it self-deprecating humor? Or are you grappling with the idea that your belief in god is due to recognizing that the alternative is too horrible to contemplate, even if true?
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28-01-2012, 12:37 PM (This post was last modified: 28-01-2012 12:47 PM by kingschosen.)
RE: Ask a Theist!
(27-01-2012 04:46 PM)lucradis Wrote:  I know you you answered my question but you totally didn't. If anything you made it more confusing. But whatever, wife just got me skyrim so I'm dead to the world!

This is more or less the reason why I don't post on TTA on weekends or after work.
(27-01-2012 04:28 PM)Reactor Wrote:  So KC if heaven is better that living and you gonna go to heaven no matter what you do because you are elect why don't you suicide? (no offense Confused )

I also want to know another thing. Why do you answer our question, what's your motive?

That's against God's plan. I couldn't do it if I wanted to.

Besides, I like life Smile

God has a plan for me... whatever it is, it has to be fulfilled.

I answer them because I like knowledge... and I like to converse with others who don't believe the same way I do. We're all people, and I don't think ideologies should isolate us.
(27-01-2012 04:58 PM)Ben Wrote:  Just a quick question...

Do you believe people can be one of the elect chosen for heaven if they're never baptized?

The elect are chosen and nothing can change that. Baptism is an outward declaration that you are one of God's.
(27-01-2012 10:50 PM)AstralMystic Wrote:  This is a great thread and I must say you had a great idea to start it. I'm new here, but it seems that most here, like myself, are by nature just the type to love the complex sort of questions. Also I've got to hand it to you. It doesn't seem like you wish to actually convert or "save" anyone here. I imagine that you are simply someone who enjoys a good theological debate as much as the next person. Such discussions are of course always far more interesting when verious views are thrown in the mix! Big Grin

Yep... this is true. I'm just here for the conversations and the community. It's sad that some people here represent atheists so poorly and result to ad hominem attacks on me. I do realize that these people don't represent the atheists as a whole, and I simply answer their asinine comments with "k".

(28-01-2012 12:00 AM)ElectricEthan Wrote:  If Kingschosen understands and agrees with all of the things he "doesn't choose to believe", then he's got serious fucking issues and we shouldn't be praising him for being an ignorant simpleton. I don't care if he answers 5000 more questions because you people aren't getting any decent answers and it's just a waste of time.

KC, you're a fool.

Enough said.

k

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28-01-2012, 01:14 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
ElectricEthan.

Don't be a dick.

If you don't want to take part, then don't.
I for one dot give two shits whether you like KC or not, but I think it's ridiculously unfair to come into a thread he started in the interests of civil discussion and just insult the guy. This isn't YouTube.

"I think of myself as an intelligent, sensitive human being with the soul of a clown which always forces me to blow it at the most important moments." -Jim Morrison
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28-01-2012, 02:27 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(28-01-2012 05:13 AM)Jeff Wrote:  Hmmmm. This is like trying to say "I didn't starve my children, I just didn't feed them." What point are you making by saying that god doesn't send them to hell, he just doesn't send them to heaven? When god makes the list, he either puts you on the heaven track or leaves you with the default hell track. To say that it's passive is a distinction without a difference. Why do you want to avoid saying that god "sends them" to hell?

No, no. I don't shy away from saying that God sends people to hell. I'm just describing how it's done.

Quote:Also, please clarify whether god created hell or not, and if so, was it deliberate? If the answer is yes, and if it was deliberate, please square this with your idea that god is passive with regard to someone going to hell. If it was not deliberate, please clarify whether god is able to make a mistake. If he did not create hell, please explain who did.

Yes, He created hell deliberately. He will actively cast Satan into hell, but He passively sends people to hell due to them not being elected. I'm not saying that one way is better than the other, I'm just detailing it.

Quote:Also, just checking on your version of hell. Is it a place of everlasting horrible pain? Or are you more in the "it's a rundown Holiday Inn" versus the Four Seasons resort that you're heading to? I'm of Italian descent so I agree with the Soprano's that hell is an Irish bar on St. Patty's day (joke, I don't believe in any afterlife)

Hell is a physical place of eternal torment and damnation.

Quote:Please clarify this statement. Are any of these the correct interpretation?

Sorry, sometimes (even though I try hard) I'm not as clear as I thought I was.

Quote:3. My belief is the indicator that I am elect - you are saying that this is how you know that you are elect, because you are a believer. All believers are elect, that's why they are believers. All atheists are non-elect by definition, because if they were elect, they'd be believers, not atheists.

This pretty much sums it up. It is impossible for someone who is not elect to be a believer. Now, they may have gone through a time when they "believed"; however, that was due to social stimuli and various other factors.

A true believer is someone that no matter what believes and will continue to believe... even against all logic and odds. This is the elect.

Quote:Again please clarify what this means - is it one of the following?

A) I could not believe in god unless I also believed that god acts upon me - no causation here, just pairing up the ideas that there is a god, and that god acts upon everyone. If you're saying that god only acts upon the elect, please state that.

B) It is god acting upon me that causes my belief - circular reasoning that says I believe in god because I believe that god acts upon me - netting out to I believe in god because I believe in god.

C) There's no point in believing in god unless I also believe that god is acting upon me - so for example, the following statement could not be true "I could believe in god without god acting upon me."

It is none of those. As a human with a depraved nature, it is impossible for me to choose God. God has to intervene, and His action is choosing me. Again, this is why it is impossible for the non-elect to choose God.

Quote:I'm wondering what was suggested by this. Was it self-deprecating humor? Or are you grappling with the idea that your belief in god is due to recognizing that the alternative is too horrible to contemplate, even if true?

My human nature is the cause for sin. Because of this, I could never come to God if He didn't first choose me. This is called total depravity. It is the belief that all humans are imperfect; created that way, and it is only through God choosing them for salvation that they can be redeemed.

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28-01-2012, 09:29 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
KingsChosen, first I want to thank you for answering so many questions. Most believers can't answer more than a few question because they run out of incompro-speak , so there's really nothing much to learn from them. I find that the true believers, and I count you among them, are the ones who can hang in there for many rounds of question, and I appreciate you doing it here.

Now, so far we've covered your concept of the elect, and how you are elect, and therefore you're on rails to go to heaven, and there's nothing that you or anyone else can do that will cause you to not go to heaven. Likewise the poor schlubs who are on the train to hell - there's nothing they can do about it because they're not elect.

I'm wondering if you've grappled with the implications of your belief about the elect. Please don't take this as a put down, but you've defined your life on earth to be completely meaningless. As an atheist, I know that there's no afterlife, so my life here on earth is very meaningful because it's the only life I'll get. It means everything to me. For a member of most most religions (such as Catholic), without the concept of the elect, a life is very meaningful because they're ultimately judged on how they lived their life on earth, as the determination for whether they go to heaven or hell. Thus their life on earth is very meaningful. However according to your belief system, your life on earth means nothing - it has zero implications for the afterlife, and it is impossibly short compared with the fantastic and infinitely long life you'll have in heaven.

Given the above, a few questions arise:

What is your understanding of why god has you spend any time on earth - given that you are elect, and nothing can change that, what's the point of your earthly time - why not just go directly to heaven? Likewise with the non-elect - why doesn't god just "make 'em and bake 'em?" In this case "bake 'em" means go to the fiery depths of hell. Why not send them directly to hell?

Regardless the reason for why god sent you to earth first, and this is a serious question, why not just kill yourself now? Since you are elect, and there are no implications for what you do here on earth, why not just give your money and possessions to some needy un-elect family, and kill yourself and your family so you can get on with the good times in heaven? I'm assuming that there is some mechanism that ensures that your children are also elect. Please confirm that that's the case.

Are you part of some organized church, and if so, what brand of religion is it? Please also confirm that your beliefs expressed here are consistent with their mainstream doctrine or if your beliefs are your own private brand.

If you are part of an organized church, and your views are consistent with doctrine, am I correct in assuming that you do not prosletyze? What would be the point given that elect are already going to heaven, un-elect are already going to hell, and joining the church would have no effect?

Thanks again for answering all these questions.
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28-01-2012, 09:37 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
I agree with Ludacris - I will admit that discussions can get abrasive at times. Understandable. When opinions differ, they differ and 2 people don't always do it in a fashion that results in shaking hands with a smile. That's fine. We're human, sometimes it works that way.

But it's totally not necessary to insult the guy. I said earlier in one of his threads and I'll repeat, I have to applaud the guy for his communication skills. Despite the amount of flak MANY have thrown the guy, he has remained polite. Just because he's a theist doesn't meant we have to treat the guy like garbage. If he's willing to be civil with me, I'll be civil with him. I don't know about you guys, but I strive to get along with my fellow man, even if I don't agree with his views. If he wants to debate, I'll debate, by all means! Send it on through! I enjoy an intelligent discussion. But... respect is given where it is due. If someone can treat me nice, well, they at least deserve the same in return. It's fine to agree to disagree.
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29-01-2012, 12:59 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(28-01-2012 09:29 PM)Jeff Wrote:  KingsChosen, first I want to thank you for answering so many questions. Most believers can't answer more than a few question because they run out of incompro-speak , so there's really nothing much to learn from them. I find that the true believers, and I count you among them, are the ones who can hang in there for many rounds of question, and I appreciate you doing it here.

Thank you for those kind words. And, you are very welcome.

Quote:I'm wondering if you've grappled with the implications of your belief about the elect. Please don't take this as a put down, but you've defined your life on earth to be completely meaningless. As an atheist, I know that there's no afterlife, so my life here on earth is very meaningful because it's the only life I'll get. It means everything to me. For a member of most most religions (such as Catholic), without the concept of the elect, a life is very meaningful because they're ultimately judged on how they lived their life on earth, as the determination for whether they go to heaven or hell. Thus their life on earth is very meaningful. However according to your belief system, your life on earth means nothing - it has zero implications for the afterlife, and it is impossibly short compared with the fantastic and infinitely long life you'll have in heaven.

Not true. My life is full of meaning. My ultimate meaning is to fulfill God's plan; however, He has given me desires. My "meanings" aren't much different than those who are non-elect (besides fulfilling God's plan). I find meaning in the desires that God has given me and in the fulfillment of those desires. To imply that my life is an empty husk is a very wrong assumption.

The meaning of my life is to enjoy it and enjoy the opportunities when my desires are fulfilled. This is also part of God's plan; His plan for me is to give me joy when my desires are fulfilled. Now, I don't know His ultimate plan or even His future plans for me, but I do know His plan is full of meaning. The meaning of His plan for me isn't just a ticket to heaven. It's to experience life.


Quote:What is your understanding of why god has you spend any time on earth - given that you are elect, and nothing can change that, what's the point of your earthly time - why not just go directly to heaven? Likewise with the non-elect - why doesn't god just "make 'em and bake 'em?" In this case "bake 'em" means go to the fiery depths of hell. Why not send them directly to hell?

I answered part of this in the above statement. To add to it, my reason for being on earth is to fulfill the plan God set for me before time.

We do not go directly to heaven because of sin. We cannot sin unless we are human. We cannot be redeemed unless we sin. The reason for humanity was to fulfill the Son's purpose. This required humanity and sin. Sin results in hell. God had mercy on some and granted them salvation through the Son's purpose and sacrifice. However, for the sacrifice to have meaning there needed to be sin; thus, requiring the elect to be human. Likewise, the non-elect can only be judged of their sin if they are human; thus damning them.

Quote:Regardless the reason for why god sent you to earth first, and this is a serious question, why not just kill yourself now? Since you are elect, and there are no implications for what you do here on earth, why not just give your money and possessions to some needy un-elect family, and kill yourself and your family so you can get on with the good times in heaven?

I'm actually surprised as to how common this question is... I think this is the third or fourth time I've been asked. I cannot kill myself or my family because it's against God's plan. I couldn't do it if I wanted to. God has also given me the desire to love myself and my family and I cannot act outside of those desires. God has also given me the desire of life and to live it fully. That's something that I can't act outside of.

Quote:I'm assuming that there is some mechanism that ensures that your children are also elect. Please confirm that that's the case.

No. God has already chosen the elect. Being the offspring of an elect doesn't automatically make you elect. That choice is up to God.

Quote:Are you part of some organized church, and if so, what brand of religion is it? Please also confirm that your beliefs expressed here are consistent with their mainstream doctrine or if your beliefs are your own private brand.

I belong to a Southern Baptist church. And, no, my beliefs are vastly different from theirs. I identify more closely with Calvinists, Reformed Baptists, or Presbyterians.

Quote:If you are part of an organized church, and your views are consistent with doctrine, am I correct in assuming that you do not prosletyze? What would be the point given that elect are already going to heaven, un-elect are already going to hell, and joining the church would have no effect?

My views are not consistent with their doctrine; however, they are consistent with the aforementioned denominations' doctrines. Yes, I do proselytize. We are commanded to preach as our preaching could be the cause for an elect's regeneration (an elect's realization of Christ). We also preach because it is part of God's plan for us as individuals. Our preaching could be His plan that He uses to enact someone's regeneration.

I only preach when I'm led by God to preach. For instance, God doesn't want me preaching on TTA. He just wants me to have conversations. Nothing more, nothing less.

Also, we do not know who is non-elect because God could use us as a catalyst for a regeneration... who knows... you could be next Wink

The church is a place for support, community, praise, and learning. It's a hub for believers to grow in Christ.

Quote:Thanks again for answering all these questions.

Again, you are very welcome.

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29-01-2012, 05:33 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(29-01-2012 12:59 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  My life is full of meaning. My ultimate meaning is to fulfill God's plan;

Your life may be full of activities but it will have no meaning because you are unable to change any outcomes. You don't have free will. You're a train following a track.

(29-01-2012 12:59 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  Now, I don't know His ultimate plan or even His future plans for me, but I do know His plan is full of meaning.

His ultimate plan for you is heaven so you do know it.

(29-01-2012 12:59 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  We do not go directly to heaven because of sin.

This is incompro-speak. Please explain.

(29-01-2012 12:59 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  We cannot be redeemed unless we sin.

What does redemption mean in a world where everyone is either on the train to heaven or the train to hell, and you can't switch?

(29-01-2012 12:59 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  The reason for humanity was to fulfill the Son's purpose.

This is incompro-speak. Please explain.


(29-01-2012 12:59 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  Sin results in hell.

(29-01-2012 12:59 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  God had mercy on some and granted them salvation through the Son's purpose and sacrifice.

It's interesting that you're starting to use so much incompro-speak. I'm assuming "the son" is jesus, but I'm not clear on what sacrifice you think he made.


(29-01-2012 12:59 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  However, for the sacrifice to have meaning there needed to be sin; thus, requiring the elect to be human.

More incompro-speak. I assume that you're alluding to the "jesus died for our sins" idea, but jesus didn't die, so what was sacrificed? Further, I don't see how that requires the elect to be human.


(29-01-2012 12:59 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  Likewise, the non-elect can only be judged of their sin if they are human; thus damning them.

Incompro-speak.


(29-01-2012 12:59 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  I'm actually surprised as to how common this question is... I think this is the third or fourth time I've been asked.

It's a purely logical question given your belief system. The fact that you don't do it is what convinces many atheists that you don't really believe what you claim.


(29-01-2012 12:59 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  God has already chosen the elect. Being the offspring of an elect doesn't automatically make you elect.

Interesting. I was thrown off by the idea that you couldn't possibly worship someone who would send your child to a place of eternal torment and damnation. Apparently you can.

(29-01-2012 12:59 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  Yes, I do proselytize. We are commanded to preach as our preaching could be the caIne for an elect's regeneration (an elect's realization of Christ). We also preach because it is part of God's plan for us as individuals. Our preaching could be His plan that He uses to enact someone's regeneration.

I'm struck by how pointless it is to prosletyze to people who cannot be changed and who don't have free will. Again, it is an activity without meaning, and you believe god has commanded you to do it. It reminds me of Sysyphus.

Please explain regeneration.
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