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29-01-2012, 08:25 PM (This post was last modified: 29-01-2012 08:30 PM by kim.)
RE: Ask a Theist!
(29-01-2012 08:13 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  I have a question - If the christian god existed and then became unconscious, would he cease to exist ?

Or got Alzheimer's...
Confused which from the looks of things....
(29-01-2012 03:17 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(29-01-2012 01:46 PM)kim Wrote:  Silly me; on my own, I've never thought to ask such a question of anyone Theist or non-Theist. To me, it is just as irrelevant as knowing whether or not there is a God.

yup, is you Smile 'cos you're nice Tongue Those of us who're travelling in the asshole compartment of the hell bound train on the other hand...

Ah ... but I always try to make my way back to the asshole compartment ...on the entire hell bound train, they always have the best parities! Wink

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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29-01-2012, 10:50 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(29-01-2012 08:25 PM)kim Wrote:  Ah ... but I always try to make my way back to the asshole compartment ...on the entire hell bound train, they always have the best parities! Wink

Well, we are all fairly odd Tongue
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30-01-2012, 12:39 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(28-01-2012 01:14 PM)lucradis Wrote:  ElectricEthan.

Don't be a dick.

If you don't want to take part, then don't.
I for one dot give two shits whether you like KC or not, but I think it's ridiculously unfair to come into a thread he started in the interests of civil discussion and just insult the guy. This isn't YouTube.

Civil discussion does not equate to intelligent discussion. After 57 pages of frivolous questioning, my ability to act polite is overcome by my ability to tell people they're stupid and to tell other people that they are also stupid for feeding the stupidity of the person being questioned.

Here's an interesting question and I don't know if it has been asked yet (if it has, I'll ask again for the sake of making my point clearer): Kingschosen, if your God came before you in a comprehensible and obvious way and told you to murder your child (if you don't have a child, do pretend), would you do it?

God isn't going to tell you why, btw.
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30-01-2012, 01:03 AM (This post was last modified: 30-01-2012 01:58 AM by morondog.)
RE: Ask a Theist!
(30-01-2012 12:39 AM)ElectricEthan Wrote:  Civil discussion does not equate to intelligent discussion. After 57 pages of frivolous questioning, my ability to act polite is overcome by my ability to tell people they're stupid and to tell other people that they are also stupid for feeding the stupidity of the person being questioned.

Oh my. Your criticism is duly noted and filed under "don't give a flying fuck". You don't decide who discusses what with whom. You want intelligent discussion, you provide it - start your own thread where you can show us the glittering jewel that is your mind.
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30-01-2012, 10:06 AM (This post was last modified: 30-01-2012 10:25 AM by kingschosen.)
RE: Ask a Theist!
(29-01-2012 05:33 AM)Jeff Wrote:  Your life may be full of activities but it will have no meaning because you are unable to change any outcomes. You don't have free will. You're a train following a track.

This is true, but since God gave me the ability to enjoy my desires, my lack of freewill becomes enjoyable. God's desires that He place in me provide me, personally, with meaning, even if they are predestined. Does that make sense?

Quote:His ultimate plan for you is heaven so you do know it.

I should have clarified as His "earthly plan".

(29-01-2012 12:59 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  We do not go directly to heaven because of sin.

This is incompro-speak. Please explain.

(29-01-2012 12:59 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  We do not go directly to heaven because of sin. We cannot sin unless we are human. We cannot be redeemed unless we sin. The reason for humanity was to fulfill the Son's purpose. This required humanity and sin. Sin results in hell. God had mercy on some and granted them salvation through the Son's purpose and sacrifice. However, for the sacrifice to have meaning there needed to be sin; thus, requiring the elect to be human. Likewise, the non-elect can only be judged of their sin if they are human; thus damning them.


Let me clarify this... looking back it is hard to understand.

God's plan for the Son (Jesus) was to give Jesus an inheritance. Jesus' purpose was to impute His righteousness to destroy the effects of sin. Yes, God create sin, but it had to be created in order to give Jesus a purpose. In order for that purpose to be fulfilled, there needed to be a redemption for the sin that was created - Jesus' sacrifice.

Humanity's depravity can only be realized if there are humans. In other words, humans can only sin if they live on earth and are humans. This is the reason why God doesn't just take His elect and burn the non-elect. There has to be sin in order to be judged or redeemed or else Jesus' purpose could not be fulfilled. Since the Bible says that humans are judged on their earthly deeds, those that do not commit earthly sins are elect (babies, children, and the mentally retarded).

God has already selected the saved and damned, but they must live an earthly life that is infiltrated by sin so that Jesus' purpose has a reason.

Quote:It's a purely logical question given your belief system. The fact that you don't do it is what convinces many atheists that you don't really believe what you claim.

Not really. Again, going back to desires. God has given me the desire to NOT kill myself and my family. Besides, the question implies freewill. If I believe I do not have the freewill to do this, then how could I do it?

Quote:Interesting. I was thrown off by the idea that you couldn't possibly worship someone who would send your child to a place of eternal torment and damnation. Apparently you can.

If I truly believe in election, then I cannot believe differently. God has given me the desire to know that my children are elect. God gives me those desires. Now, I can't say one way or another if they are elect, but this is a good indicator that they are.

Quote:I'm struck by how pointless it is to prosletyze to people who cannot be changed and who don't have free will. Again, it is an activity without meaning, and you believe god has commanded you to do it. It reminds me of Sysyphus.

God has predestined us to preach. It is against our freewill to not preach. He has instill in us a desire to preach, so we take pleasure in it. The meaning behind it is that it's part of God's plan. We cannot deny God's plan. Again, He could use my preaching as a way to enact a regeneration.

Quote:Please explain regeneration.

The elect are always elect; however, they do not know that they are elect until God acts upon them. God's acting upon them creates a realization of belief and a confession that they are God's. This is commonly known as being "saved". It is different in my theology, though, because saying that you got "saved" is implying that you had something to do with it. We cannot come to God unless He comes to us. This is why it's a regeneration. God regenerates us in Him, and there is no way that we can deny Him.
(29-01-2012 10:23 AM)Azaraith Wrote:  How is it passive? You are actively selecting from a list of people, not choosing people is a conscious act. If there was a row of 100 innocent prisoners, all about to be executed, and I could spare any that I pointed to, I would be pointing to all of them. There has to be a reason he didn't choose to elect everybody, just like I'd have to have a reason for selecting only some of the prisoners for salvation.

Also, who created hell? Is hell not a construct of God anyway?

I was saying what it is. It is a passive damnation, but a damnation nonetheless. Actively choosing someone is different from not choosing. I'm just trying to be as concise as possible so that people can fully understand what I'm saying without any confusion.

God created hell. God created sin. God created evil.

He created all of this as result of how Jesus' purpose would be fulfilled. Since there needed to be sin, all of these other constructs needed to be.
(29-01-2012 11:24 AM)morondog Wrote:  Related to Egor's response in another thread:

KC, do you think God takes pleasure in burning people in hell?

If so, do you think this is right and moral? Even if God exists and you're elect, is there any reason other than fear to follow such a vicious God?

No, He does not take pleasure in it. It is an unfortunate necessity.

Is it morally right? Well, I look at it like that. None of us deserve mercy; however, He gave mercy to some. If He gave mercy to all, then Christ would be pointless. Again, it's another unfortunate necessity.

I do not have a choice in serving God. My desire is to serve Him because of the mercy and love that He has shown me.
In light of recent events, I added a new ground rule.

See the first post and read ground rule #VIIII.

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30-01-2012, 10:32 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(30-01-2012 10:06 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(29-01-2012 11:24 AM)morondog Wrote:  Related to Egor's response in another thread:

KC, do you think God takes pleasure in burning people in hell?

If so, do you think this is right and moral? Even if God exists and you're elect, is there any reason other than fear to follow such a vicious God?

No, He does not take pleasure in it. It is an unfortunate necessity.

Is it morally right? Well, I look at it like that. None of us deserve mercy; however, He gave mercy to some. If He gave mercy to all, then Christ would be pointless. Again, it's another unfortunate necessity.

I do not have a choice in serving God. My desire is to serve Him because of the mercy and love that He has shown me.

Yeah my subsequent question was only for if God did take pleasure in it according to you - since he doesn't it doesn't apply...

Although God and necessity seem like strange words to go together? I thought the def of God was no limits?
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30-01-2012, 10:34 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(30-01-2012 10:32 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(30-01-2012 10:06 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(29-01-2012 11:24 AM)morondog Wrote:  Related to Egor's response in another thread:

KC, do you think God takes pleasure in burning people in hell?

If so, do you think this is right and moral? Even if God exists and you're elect, is there any reason other than fear to follow such a vicious God?

No, He does not take pleasure in it. It is an unfortunate necessity.

Is it morally right? Well, I look at it like that. None of us deserve mercy; however, He gave mercy to some. If He gave mercy to all, then Christ would be pointless. Again, it's another unfortunate necessity.

I do not have a choice in serving God. My desire is to serve Him because of the mercy and love that He has shown me.

Yeah my subsequent question was only for if God did take pleasure in it according to you - since he doesn't it doesn't apply...

Although God and necessity seem like strange words to go together? I thought the def of God was no limits?

He doesn't have limits, but His plan must be fulfilled. If He created the plan, then it is necessary for it to be fulfilled. Make sense?

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30-01-2012, 10:39 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(30-01-2012 10:34 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  He doesn't have limits, but His plan must be fulfilled. If He created the plan, then it is necessary for it to be fulfilled. Make sense?

totally Tongue what a weirdo.
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30-01-2012, 10:40 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(30-01-2012 10:39 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(30-01-2012 10:34 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  He doesn't have limits, but His plan must be fulfilled. If He created the plan, then it is necessary for it to be fulfilled. Make sense?

totally Tongue what a weirdo.

Heh, like my new ground rule?

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30-01-2012, 10:45 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(30-01-2012 10:40 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  Heh, like my new ground rule?

er... yes? I went and liked it in the OP. You's can go look if you wants. Scientific believable evidence!
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