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06-02-2012, 02:02 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(06-02-2012 11:53 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(06-02-2012 11:51 AM)lucradis Wrote:  Also frailty would have been better had they ... not cast mathew. He stinks.

Yeah, I felt that way too.

Ok. I see. Now you're both delusional. Dodgy

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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06-02-2012, 03:05 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(06-02-2012 01:53 PM)Nagoda Wrote:  What is your take on who wrote the Bible? Do you believe in the Documentary Hypothesis (JEDP) for the Hebrew Bible or do you think Moses wrote the Pentateuch? What about the New Testament? Was there really a Matthew Mark Luke and John or do you subscribe to the Four Source Hypothesis (Q theory), Oxford Hypothesis (Markan Priority without Q) or the Griesbach Hypothesis (Matthean Priority)?

Or did everything I just mention go by your head?

No, I've read the points before, but I haven't put enough time into them to give an answer. I may have to pass on this question until later : /

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06-02-2012, 03:26 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(06-02-2012 12:21 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Why do people insist on taking a few words from a verse - removing the meaning and context; thus adding their own meaning to what the Bible says?

I'll take your word on it that those were taken out of context. How about these three - inspired? correctly translated? how do you resolve the contradiction?

Mark 3:28-29: I tell you the truth, all the sins and blasphemies of men will be forgiven them. But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin.

1 John 1:9: If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

Colossians 2:13: When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins.

Are there some sins which cannot be forgiven (first quote) or can all sins be forgiven (2nd and 3rd quotes)?
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06-02-2012, 03:43 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(06-02-2012 03:26 PM)Jeff Wrote:  I'll take your word on it that those were taken out of context. How about these three - inspired? correctly translated? how do you resolve the contradiction?

Mark 3:28-29: I tell you the truth, all the sins and blasphemies of men will be forgiven them. But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin.

1 John 1:9: If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

Colossians 2:13: When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins.

Are there some sins which cannot be forgiven (first quote) or can all sins be forgiven (2nd and 3rd quotes)?

Okay, you have to take into account the audience of the scriptures.

In Mark, Jesus was addressing mockers and unbelievers.

In Colossians, Paul was addressing the Church of Colossi (believers).

In 1 John, John was addressing believers within the Johannine circle.

A believer cannot blaspheme the Holy Spirit, as God lives in them, God cannot blaspheme Himself. Only non-elect can blaspheme, and Jesus was addressing the crowd as to why these men were without redemption.

The other two verses directly address believers (or elect), and it is describing how all sins for the elect are forgiven.

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06-02-2012, 05:03 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(06-02-2012 03:43 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  In Mark, Jesus was addressing mockers and unbelievers.

Fine with me, but the author designated as mark was inspired to say that some sins cannot be forgiven.

(06-02-2012 03:43 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  In 1 John, John was addressing believers within the Johannine circle.

Again fine, but the author designated john was inspired to say that a sin confessed will be forgiven. He doesn't say that this only applies to the elect or those within the the Johannine circle. It contradicts the first quote.


(06-02-2012 03:43 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  In Colossians, Paul was addressing the Church of Colossi (believers).

Still fine with me, but Paul was inspired to say that "he forgave us all our sins" which contradicts the inspired statement above that some sins cannot be forgiven. It doesn't condition it based on the audience or class or sinner.

I'd like to explore your understanding of biblical history. Were the early jews ever poly-theistic or did they always believe/worship one god?
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06-02-2012, 05:08 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
About the above verse from Mark, why are they even talking about forgiving sins in the next life if God's choice of who comes to heaven isn't based on any of the human's actions?
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06-02-2012, 06:20 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(06-02-2012 05:08 PM)Ben Wrote:  About the above verse from Mark, why are they even talking about forgiving sins in the next life if God's choice of who comes to heaven isn't based on any of the human's actions?

That's a good question Ben. KC, does forgiveness mean anything in a world where heaven/hell are predetermined?
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07-02-2012, 09:07 AM (This post was last modified: 07-02-2012 09:09 AM by kingschosen.)
RE: Ask a Theist!
(06-02-2012 05:03 PM)Jeff Wrote:  Fine with me, but the author designated as mark was inspired to say that some sins cannot be forgiven.

He did. But again, this has to be read in context. Jesus is addressing the Pharisees and telling them (essentially) that they are damned. If you look in the Gospel of John, Jesus tells them they cannot know the things of God because they are not of God.

Again, the context of this is Jesus publicly condemning them and telling them that their sins cannot be atoned for.

Quote:Again fine, but the author designated john was inspired to say that a sin confessed will be forgiven. He doesn't say that this only applies to the elect or those within the the Johannine circle. It contradicts the first quote.

No, it doesn't. John's epistles were written to these Johannines to let them know that they weren't the only type of men that could receive salvation. Again... audience and context. The elect's sins are forgiven... the non-elects aren't.


Quote:Still fine with me, but Paul was inspired to say that "he forgave us all our sins" which contradicts the inspired statement above that some sins cannot be forgiven. It doesn't condition it based on the audience or class or sinner.

Again... this was written to the church (believers). "All" doesn't mean a complete, collective all; never mind the fact that the Greek doesn't translate that way.

Look at it like this:
Let's say you're taking a road trip with your buds. You stop at McDonald's to eat. When you and your friends have finished you return to the car. Let's say you ask, "Everyone here?"

Now... did you mean EVERYONE in the entire world? No, you meant your audience. Was what you said incorrect? No, based on the context of the situation it was correct.

This is what has to be considered when reading. Forgiveness of sin is for the elect, and it's being discussed amongst the elect.

Quote:I'd like to explore your understanding of biblical history. Were the early jews ever poly-theistic or did they always believe/worship one god?

Both. There were several occasions where the Babylonian influence melded into their beliefs and produce polytheistic idol worship; however, they would eventually return to the monotheistic worship of YHWH.
(06-02-2012 06:20 PM)Jeff Wrote:  
(06-02-2012 05:08 PM)Ben Wrote:  About the above verse from Mark, why are they even talking about forgiving sins in the next life if God's choice of who comes to heaven isn't based on any of the human's actions?

That's a good question Ben. KC, does forgiveness mean anything in a world where heaven/hell are predetermined?

Yes. Heaven/hell is predetermined based on the forgiveness of sins.

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07-02-2012, 09:31 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
I was an Elected Believer for 40+ years, and I blasphemed the Holy Spirit, so there goes your theory. Tongue

Don't bother replying. I know you don't believe I could ever have been really elected and I was just playing make-believe Born Again Christian for four decades.

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
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07-02-2012, 09:35 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(07-02-2012 09:31 AM)Erxomai Wrote:  I was an Elected Believer for 40+ years, and I blasphemed the Holy Spirit, so there goes your theory. Tongue

Don't bother replying. I know you don't believe I could ever have been really elected and I was just playing make-believe Born Again Christian for four decades.

But that mean that y... oh... trixy Erxomai...

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