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10-12-2011, 08:38 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
Hey, King.

Man. These questions are coming fast and furious. Way to keep up!

Quote:1) No. Theistic evolutionist... mostly. I believe God has an active role in evolution and wasn't just the clock maker.

2) The God of the OT and NT are the same; however, He does act differently. The OT rules were for the Jews. They were for symbolism, purity laws, and for obedience. The law serves as a blueprint for the teachings of Christ.

3) I think, as a whole, organized religion has become hopelessly corrupted.

1 - Interesting. Do you mean an active role in the sense that he has command of who lives and who dies or do you mean he's designing things? (Perhaps I didn't just make the distinction between those two things clear. Perhaps you should just clarify in your own terms.)

2 - That still doesn't really answer my question.

3 - Word up.

Quote:1) Ok, I really want to go into some detail on this. Just to let you know (you might not care), but Christians roll their eyes at these particular questions. Atheists and non-believers like to ask this and it's akin to a Creationists telling an Evolutionist that if we came from monkeys then how come we still have monkeys. You think it's your ace-in-the-hole, but theologically speaking it's more of a facepalm. If you really, really want to annoy Christians when you're debating them, keep asking this question in some form and make them extensively and exhaustively explain it. Oh and use semantics on them too. They'll start to rage pretty quickly (need to stop giving y'all tactics <_<).

Anyhoo, the explanation: the question is a contradiction. God cannot contradict himself. Also, the question is a fallacy of semantics (as aforementioned). God is all powerful, therefore He cannot be something that He isn't. If He creates something that defies His power then we've created a circular paradox. And while, it's lulzy for you, it isn't a fair question to the theist. If you REALLY want to annoy an Arminian Christian, use this same tactic when addressing free will and omniscience... if they counter with, "well God is all powerful, so He gave us the power to be able to choose", then ask them how an all powerful God can relinquish His power to a human? Doesn't that take away from His omnipotence.

You see, God is either all power or He isn't. Since God is all powerful He cannot create a paradox about His power. But, as I've stated, if you want to get lulzy with Christians, keep hammering this.

Very interesting.

I've always thought that this sort of argument (the weight too heavy to lift) was BS. If we're even entertaining the notion of an all powerful creator of the universe, then we have to begin with the assumption that this being is not bound by the rules of the natural universe. So time, space, physics, gravity (that which governs heaviness), math, aerodynamics, etc, would not have an effect on God, God would affect them (thus God's distinction as a super-natural being). Since our understanding of existence is limited to what we can view, we cannot understand the conditions that God would operate in should he exist and our terminology, itself bound to the natural universe, cannot describe it.

There's a fascinating documentary called The Nature of Existence. Brilliant really. One of the interviewees, Rabbi Boruch Kaplan, had this to say:
Quote:If we define existence as that which God has, because the one thing we can say about God is that he exists, he is, he has a state… he exists in a state of absolute isness, in Hebrew that’s called Yeshut, isness, by in no way shape or form can I define myself relative to those terms. Meaning that’s a level of reality that is completely beyond time, completely beyond space, completely even beyond finite or infinite. God isn’t even infinite, he creates infinite reality and he creates finite reality. He’s beyond both. Which helps solve the problem how…. the philosophers asked how can it be that an infinite God creates finite reality. Judaism doesn’t see a problem whatsoever because God’s not infinite. God’s completely beyond limitation. Infinite reality itself is limited by virtue of the fact that it can’t express itself in a finite way. Finite reality is limited to the extent that it exists within the context of some sort of finite space, finite time. God is beyond both.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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10-12-2011, 09:10 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
1. Why don't Christians have a system in place for discovering what their "spiritual gift" is?

2. Why isn't speaking in tongues part of the regular church service as commanded by Paul? Why isn't prophecy shared during church service?

3. Why, in Matthew 19, when Jesus is asked "what must I do to be saved" does Jesus reply with "follow these commandments" and then "sell your possessions"?

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10-12-2011, 09:19 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
STOP. Who would cross the Bridge of Death must answer me these questions three, ere the other side he see:

What is your name?

What is your Quest?

What is the air-speed velocity of an unladen swallow?

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
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10-12-2011, 09:55 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(10-12-2011 09:19 AM)Erxomai Wrote:  STOP. Who would cross the Bridge of Death must answer me these questions three, ere the other side he see:

What is your name?

What is your Quest?

What is the air-speed velocity of an unladen swallow?

What is your favorite colour?

Blue! No, yellooo.....

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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10-12-2011, 10:22 AM (This post was last modified: 10-12-2011 10:27 AM by morondog.)
RE: Ask a Theist!
(10-12-2011 08:17 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(10-12-2011 05:30 AM)morondog Wrote:  you don't have a choice in serving him. If you did have the choice, would you?
If I had the choice to serve Him, would I? No, I would never make that choice. I am incapable of choosing to serve God. If God didn't choose me, I would choose my human nature 100% of the time.

Alright. Now. *How* are you to serve Him? What are the rules? Follow the commandments of Jesus? Be nice to people even though they're going to Hell?

What I mean is, what is it that God asks you to do, that you wouldn't do if you didn't serve Him?

Prayer I can think of as not an activity that I would willingly engage in. What else does God ask you to do?
Also, what does God tell you not to do, that you would otherwise do?
Masturbation comes to mind Tongue
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10-12-2011, 10:40 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(10-12-2011 07:50 AM)Chas Wrote:  Do you get your morals from the Bible?

Is what is morally good commanded by God because it is morally good, or is it morally good because it is commanded by God?

As I've stated before, morals are innate in us and they are based on empathy. Morals are also relative and can be affected by society.

God's morals are separate from ours; however, He gives us examples of basic morality and how to treat others. God also gives us morality based on His purity laws, but these are standards only for His chosen. That's not to say that non-believers can't participate in the purity morals that God commands, but it is commanded to the believers.

At it's root, morality is primitive and comes from empathy. God calls His chosen to act on higher morals that are commanded.

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10-12-2011, 10:41 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(10-12-2011 10:40 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(10-12-2011 07:50 AM)Chas Wrote:  Do you get your morals from the Bible?

Is what is morally good commanded by God because it is morally good, or is it morally good because it is commanded by God?

As I've stated before, morals are innate in us and they are based on empathy. Morals are also relative and can be affected by society.

God's morals are separate from ours; however, He gives us examples of basic morality and how to treat others. God also gives us morality based on His purity laws, but these are standards only for His chosen. That's not to say that non-believers can't participate in the purity morals that God commands, but it is commanded to the believers.

At it's root, morality is primitive and comes from empathy. God calls His chosen to act on higher morals that are commanded.

How does God communicate with His chosen?

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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10-12-2011, 10:45 AM (This post was last modified: 10-12-2011 11:44 AM by kingschosen.)
RE: Ask a Theist!
@Ghost

1) I mean that every facet of evolution... every mutation... every minute change... has been carefully planned from the very beginning. God didn't create evolution and then say, "Well, let's see what happens." God carefully constructed it.

2) Yeah, sorry about that. Later, I clarified. Here is what I wrote:
Ok, addressing what I said about the OT and the NT:

God is the same yesterday, today, and forever; however, He had a plan for the Jews. In order for His plan to be fulfilled there was a number of things that had to be done (that crazy stuff in the OT). This would pave the way for Jesus by establishing the Hebrews.

There were also things commanded of the Jews that were JUST for Jews. Like I said, this was a matter of obedience, symbolism, and purity laws.

When Jesus arrived, the knowledge of the Jewish God was established and widespread, and so, this allowed Jesus to enact God's plan.

So, in short, God remains the same, but His plan is enacted differently before Jesus.

(10-12-2011 09:10 AM)Starcrash Wrote:  1. Why don't Christians have a system in place for discovering what their "spiritual gift" is?

2. Why isn't speaking in tongues part of the regular church service as commanded by Paul? Why isn't prophecy shared during church service?

3. Why, in Matthew 19, when Jesus is asked "what must I do to be saved" does Jesus reply with "follow these commandments" and then "sell your possessions"?

1) Because Christians are people. They're lazy and like others to tell them stuff. Christians also like lists and corny crap for some reason. Only God can reveal your spiritual gift(s) to you. It's silly to think someone who has never met you or spent time with you can tell you what you're good at. Clairvoyants make a living off gullible people like this by feeding them generalizations.

2) Speaking in tongues without a interpreter is unbiblical. If there isn't an interpreter, then it's not of God and fake. Tongues without an interpreter is only acceptable during a personal prayer between you and God. If there is someone else present and able to hear your tongues, then there should be an interpreter.

3) This was a parable. It was teaching obedience.
(10-12-2011 09:19 AM)Erxomai Wrote:  STOP. Who would cross the Bridge of Death must answer me these questions three, ere the other side he see:

What is your name?

What is your Quest?

What is the air-speed velocity of an unladen swallow?

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(10-12-2011 10:22 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(10-12-2011 08:17 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(10-12-2011 05:30 AM)morondog Wrote:  you don't have a choice in serving him. If you did have the choice, would you?
If I had the choice to serve Him, would I? No, I would never make that choice. I am incapable of choosing to serve God. If God didn't choose me, I would choose my human nature 100% of the time.

Alright. Now. *How* are you to serve Him? What are the rules? Follow the commandments of Jesus? Be nice to people even though they're going to Hell?

What I mean is, what is it that God asks you to do, that you wouldn't do if you didn't serve Him?

Prayer I can think of as not an activity that I would willingly engage in. What else does God ask you to do?
Also, what does God tell you not to do, that you would otherwise do?
Masturbation comes to mind Tongue

I serve Him by listening to the Holy Spirit. How I serve Him is circumstantial. It can be almost anything and isn't something specific.

If I didn't serve God and wasn't guided by the Holy Spirit, I would most certainly be addicted to drugs. I would probably be in jail for assault as well. And more than likely, I would not be married right now and would be chasing tail to this day. That's just for me, personally. I would selfishly delve headfirst into my most carnal desires.
(10-12-2011 10:41 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(10-12-2011 10:40 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(10-12-2011 07:50 AM)Chas Wrote:  Do you get your morals from the Bible?

Is what is morally good commanded by God because it is morally good, or is it morally good because it is commanded by God?

As I've stated before, morals are innate in us and they are based on empathy. Morals are also relative and can be affected by society.

God's morals are separate from ours; however, He gives us examples of basic morality and how to treat others. God also gives us morality based on His purity laws, but these are standards only for His chosen. That's not to say that non-believers can't participate in the purity morals that God commands, but it is commanded to the believers.

At it's root, morality is primitive and comes from empathy. God calls His chosen to act on higher morals that are commanded.

How does God communicate with His chosen?

The Holy Spirit is our medium to the Father.

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10-12-2011, 12:03 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
@Starcrash

I misread your first question. They DO have a system for "discovering" your spiritual gift. But as I expressed, it's pretty silly.

Here is one of the many examples of the way to discover your spiritual gifts. There are also many books like this as well.

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10-12-2011, 12:06 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
1. Aren't god's chosen generally highlighted for their sinful lives? In the idea of Calvinism where someone is holy for the sake of being holy. haven't many of the focal point characters in stories done much worse things than the people around them. What about being christian makes someone more moral when those around them who transgress for trifling things are punished while the sinful "chosen" are praised and rewarded?

2. Many stories throughout the old testament discuss events that happened in Egypt which could never have happened. Such as Joseph's excessive con game that rewarded him all of the wealth of Egypt. Why add stories of the utterly impossible, especially when there is nothing to learn from them?

3. Why is one of the most successful plans of Abraam and Jacob convincing someone to sleep with their wife (who is their sister) in order to gain wealth and then get them in trouble with god? Can this in any time be seen as anything more than cowardly?

4. Why do you study the book when the book was outdated 200 years after it's formation? Prior to the council of Nicaea christianity was a personal belief in which people had a common cultural view, and people chose to own stories they connected with. People gloss over any stories within the organized book of stories that they don't like. Why can't culture be a better teacher than a book which often highlighted the worser parables.

I'm not a non believer, I believe in the possibility of anything. I just don't let the actuality of something be determined by a 3rd party.
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