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27-02-2012, 08:54 PM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(27-02-2012 11:13 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(24-02-2012 08:55 PM)Ben Wrote:  Does god know the exact position and momentum of an electron?

Yes.

In that case the uncertainty principle is easy to violate - just pray and you can easily learn position and momentum to arbitrary precision! Big Grin
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27-02-2012, 09:24 PM (This post was last modified: 27-02-2012 09:58 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Ask a Theist!
(27-02-2012 08:54 PM)Ben Wrote:  
(27-02-2012 11:13 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(24-02-2012 08:55 PM)Ben Wrote:  Does god know the exact position and momentum of an electron?

Yes.

In that case the uncertainty principle is easy to violate - just pray and you can easily learn position and momentum to arbitrary precision! Big Grin

What KC might mean is that God knows in advance how we are gonna collapse the probability waves. God knows what we're gonna measure before we measure it, like a meta-measurement Wink. Which is completely at odds with the conventional understanding of free will but perfectly consistent with KC's theology.

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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28-02-2012, 01:08 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
Allright, KC. Here are some final questions for you:
Does your belief make you happy? I mean, with all that you've told us, about your god and that he's had everything planned from the beginning, and that you know some decent folks will burn in hell forever, and that nothing can be changed from god's plan, that no matter what you do or what anyone does, it's all a fixed situation, with no way to change it, because that's how god wants it, does that all make your day?

Or does it make you sad, this knowing the ill fate of others while you will not only be spared, but live in eternal glory with the god who set all this up, and maybe even your most dearly loved ones won't be joining you in that eternity?

With this knowledge that you have, do you wish it were different, this situation, or are you down with it? Are you sitting there, going, "this is the most awesome, coolest thing, this plan that god devised, and I'm so happy that I figured it out and that he chose me, even though those others will suffer eternally, but that's OK, because god will remove any memory I have of them, so I won't be aware of their suffering."

Or do you think, somewhere inside you, that it's kind of scary and that you wish it weren't true? Any part of it? Or do you just refrain from focusing on the sad parts (the eternal suffering of others)?
I ask these without sarcasm, but with a true desire to know your thoughts on these questions.

"Religion is the binky of a teen-age humanity."
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28-02-2012, 08:16 AM (This post was last modified: 28-02-2012 08:32 AM by kingschosen.)
RE: Ask a Theist!
(27-02-2012 09:24 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(27-02-2012 08:54 PM)Ben Wrote:  
(27-02-2012 11:13 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(24-02-2012 08:55 PM)Ben Wrote:  Does god know the exact position and momentum of an electron?

Yes.

In that case the uncertainty principle is easy to violate - just pray and you can easily learn position and momentum to arbitrary precision! Big Grin

What KC might mean is that God knows in advance how we are gonna collapse the probability waves. God knows what we're gonna measure before we measure it, like a meta-measurement Wink. Which is completely at odds with the conventional understanding of free will but perfectly consistent with KC's theology.

What Girly said.
(28-02-2012 01:08 AM)yosemitesam Wrote:  Allright, KC. Here are some final questions for you:
Does your belief make you happy? I mean, with all that you've told us, about your god and that he's had everything planned from the beginning, and that you know some decent folks will burn in hell forever, and that nothing can be changed from god's plan, that no matter what you do or what anyone does, it's all a fixed situation, with no way to change it, because that's how god wants it, does that all make your day?

Or does it make you sad, this knowing the ill fate of others while you will not only be spared, but live in eternal glory with the god who set all this up, and maybe even your most dearly loved ones won't be joining you in that eternity?

This is a complex issue. Like God, I have sadness for those destined for hell. It cannot be changed, but that does not mean I don't have the desire to mourn. I have empathy towards others, and I am sad that some are unable to be in heaven.

Simultaneously, though, I am happy and joyful with my life and its redemption. I also hold on to the hope that the "unsaved" haven't had their regeneration yet. Yes, everything is predestined, but I do not know God's plan for them. Their regeneration could come later in life; maybe even unseen by me. I rejoice in that hope.

Quote:With this knowledge that you have, do you wish it were different, this situation, or are you down with it? Are you sitting there, going, "this is the most awesome, coolest thing, this plan that god devised, and I'm so happy that I figured it out and that he chose me, even though those others will suffer eternally, but that's OK, because god will remove any memory I have of them, so I won't be aware of their suffering."

Or do you think, somewhere inside you, that it's kind of scary and that you wish it weren't true? Any part of it? Or do you just refrain from focusing on the sad parts (the eternal suffering of others)?
I ask these without sarcasm, but with a true desire to know your thoughts on these questions.

I would be lying if I said I don't occasionally struggle with the thought of no freewill... or the "fairness" of the situation. This belief is somewhat radical despite it being theologically sound and the most logical.

In the end, God has liberated me. And yes, sometimes I focus on the smaller things in life and they make me sad; however, the larger picture gives me great joy.

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28-02-2012, 10:21 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(28-02-2012 08:16 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  I would be lying if I said I don't occasionally struggle with the thought of no freewill... or the "fairness" of the situation. This belief is somewhat radical despite it being theologically sound and the most logical.

Having no free will is certainly NOT logical. WTF?!
Your silly god's "plan" is also most illogical. That fact that you think it is tells me conclusively that you are off your rocker.
But that part doesn't compute to you nor does it bother you in the least.
Wacky and sad.

It's all in your head, because there is no other place it could be.
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28-02-2012, 10:23 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(28-02-2012 10:21 AM)TalladegaTom Wrote:  
(28-02-2012 08:16 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  I would be lying if I said I don't occasionally struggle with the thought of no freewill... or the "fairness" of the situation. This belief is somewhat radical despite it being theologically sound and the most logical.

Having no free will is certainly NOT logical. WTF?!
Your silly god's "plan" is also most illogical. That fact that you think it is tells me conclusively that you are off your rocker.
But that part doesn't compute to you nor does it bother you in the least.
Wacky and sad.

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It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
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28-02-2012, 10:37 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(28-02-2012 10:21 AM)TalladegaTom Wrote:  Having no free will is certainly NOT logical. WTF?!

If God is omniscient, then He knows all. If God is omnipotent, then He controls all. Freewill is a direct contestation of God if God is defined those ways.

It is very logical.

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28-02-2012, 11:14 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
There's a lot of "if'" going on in there, don't ya think? It is illogical to form such an opinion on so many "ifs".

It's all in your head, because there is no other place it could be.
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28-02-2012, 11:16 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(28-02-2012 11:14 AM)TalladegaTom Wrote:  There's a lot of "if'" going on in there, don't ya think? It is illogical to form such an opinion on so many "ifs".

Are you really resorting to semantics?

Those words are necessary when having a dialog between a theist and an atheist.

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28-02-2012, 11:25 AM
RE: Ask a Theist!
(28-02-2012 11:16 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  Those words are necessary when having a dialog between a theist and an atheist.

Nope, Those words are necessary when defending something that does not exist.

It's all in your head, because there is no other place it could be.
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