Ask a Young Earth Creationist
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02-05-2011, 08:16 PM
 
RE: Ask a Young Earth Creationist
(02-05-2011 08:13 PM)ikester7579 Wrote:  Starlight problem has to do with the difference in the laws Of physics I talked about in my other post in this thread. Time without sin is eternal so therefore eternal laws apply during creation.

How does one create in a dimension where time passes but age does not increase?

You create with age already attached as part of the creation of both dead and live matter. And because in eternity there is really no beginning, there is not problem with all things aging differently. Some even by how the laws of physics would work. Basically for this to make any sense, there are just 2 things to remember.

1) In our time-line, age and time run parallel.
2) In eternal time, age and time are "2 separate processes". In other words, time passes but age stays the same always. This is why all things created during creation had age already added to them. Why? Like I said before, eternity has no beginning. So how would you gauge a beginning where it cannot exist, understand?

So how would the light problem work out and be solved which such difference?

Genesis 1:15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.

Why create light (stars) then say: to give light upon the earth: and it was so.

If you think about it, what was being acknowledge here is the the light produced by the star was not yet shining upon the earth, or it would not have had to be so already. So creating the light, then saying it was created to give light upon the earth, and then it did. Means there was an action taken place that made it so.

So as the light travels across space to shine upon the earth. The laws of physics that require the star to be older for it's light can shine upon the earth, actually age the star. So if the star is 4 billion light years away, and it's light was stretched during creation to shine upon the earth. Then it would age according to how far it's light had to travel.

All of this is because time and age are separate process, and not parallel like what we see now. So when we try to explain creation under our current laws, it makes no sense.

1) So for most creationists who have not figured this out say: God did it because he can do anything.
2) And for most atheist-evolutionists who look more towards what they can see, think we are using cop out answers when actually most don't even understand the complexity of how creation was done.
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02-05-2011, 08:33 PM
RE: Ask a Young Earth Creationist
(02-05-2011 07:59 PM)Zach Wrote:  Just one issue I wanted to ask about with your last post, Spectre. Does Genesis say that God is outside of time and space? I know that's how most people think of God if they believe in him, but I don't recall the Bible saying anything to that effect in its account of creation.
That's a good question. Ikester made a great about it, but I'll say that spirits would exist out of time, space, and matter. That is why you rarely see one with your eyes.


For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones. Isaiah 57:15

"God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth." John 4:24

"For a thousand years in thy sight [are but] as yesterday when it is past, and [as] a watch in the night." 90:4

I suppose one could say too, that to be eternal, you have to be outside of time. God is the "first cause" in Creation, so he would have to be outside of space and matter as well. I actually have several friends who died and were resuscitated. Two were Christians, they do claim to have seen heaven. One was an atheist, strangely enough, I got the best description from my friend who was an atheist at the time of her experience. She was in a white tunnel, and saw little lights traveling past her. She knew that they were people. She said that she could think like thousands of times faster, and she could think clearly. She said that she was dead for 30 seconds but it was the most blissful 30 seconds in her life. She is a Christian now though, even though she never saw heaven when she died. Of course, I can't validate any of their claims and I'm just a guy on the internet, so I realize that there may be some skepticism about the stories that I described.(Of course, you have muslims who claim to see heaven too, but i find the stories to be heavily varied. I actually just did a google search for those types of stories but all of the muslims seem to convert during those types of experiences. There is one called islamwebs.net or something like that but the page didn't load.)


(02-05-2011 07:59 PM)Zach Wrote:  Also, just wanted to say that I saw your intro post and obviously this topic, and I admire your eagerness to have an open and respectful debate in a place where you hold a very unpopular view, especially when people on opposite sides of this debate tend to have such unpleasant stereotypes of each other. We may disagree, but you certainly have my respect Smile
Thanks, I appreciate it. Smile

"But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and [be] ready always to [give] an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:" Peter 3:15

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02-05-2011, 08:50 PM
RE: Ask a Young Earth Creationist
(02-05-2011 08:33 PM)Spectre Wrote:  but I'll say that spirits would exist out of time, space, and matter. That is why you rarely see one with your eyes.

There's another term for things that you can't see with your eyes that exist outside of time, space, and nature: Imaginary

Because otherwise they would exist.



(02-05-2011 08:33 PM)Spectre Wrote:  I actually have several friends who died and...

Don't start pulling the anecdotal strawmen out of your hat now. Or else my rebuttal will be along the same inconsequential "proofs" of entire cities that were wiped out by a flood and the only building that remained untouched was a mosque. Or the Wiccan lady who had 2 terminal cancers, performed a ritual from the Book of Shadows, and had no traces of cancer a day later.


The best part about having an all-powerful imaginary friend is that you'll never have to say "I can't explain how/why that happened." The reason for the billions and billions of unoccupied planets, infinite amounts of empty vacuous space, and the need for an unstable, magnetic, nuclear fireball instead of just having light and darkness? "Well we can't know God's plan."

"Ain't got no last words to say, yellow streak right up my spine. The gun in my mouth was real and the taste blew my mind."

"We see you cry. We turn your head. Then we slap your face. We see you try. We see you fail. Some things never change."
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02-05-2011, 09:01 PM
 
RE: Ask a Young Earth Creationist
That's weird, double post.

Anyway, I'm being ignored because they cannot address my posts. That's okay, most atheist can't do it at the forum I help run either.
(02-05-2011 08:50 PM)Buddy Christ Wrote:  There's another term for things that you can't see with your eyes that exist outside of time, space, and nature: Imaginary

Because otherwise they would exist.

And exactly how would you go about proving your logic?
How can you empirically prove other dimensions don't exist?

Creationist answer to the first cause, is matter always existed in another dimension. One that moves so fast that time dilation makes it unseen. During creation what was needed had to just phase into our time to appear (to be seen) even though it was always there. How do you think gravity exists unseen? It's phased out of our time so we cannot observe it or it's source.
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02-05-2011, 09:10 PM
RE: Ask a Young Earth Creationist

"But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and [be] ready always to [give] an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:" Peter 3:15

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02-05-2011, 09:16 PM
 
RE: Ask a Young Earth Creationist
Quote:Don't start pulling the anecdotal strawmen out of your hat now. Or else my rebuttal will be along the same inconsequential "proofs" of entire cities that were wiped out by a flood and the only building that remained untouched was a mosque. Or the Wiccan lady who had 2 terminal cancers, performed a ritual from the Book of Shadows, and had no traces of cancer a day later.

I love threats. How about a life-form that can change it's environment to suit it's needs instead of it adapting to it surroundings? Would you not say that would defy evolution? And how would such an ability evolve?

Plankton defy evolution.

Quote:The best part about having an all-powerful imaginary friend is that you'll never have to say "I can't explain how/why that happened." The reason for the billions and billions of unoccupied planets, infinite amounts of empty vacuous space, and the need for an unstable, magnetic, nuclear fireball instead of just having light and darkness? "Well we can't know God's plan."

LOL, sounds like your theory has become weak so you need to resort to insulting what is believed. I'm actually disappointed. You can throw out better insults than that. You know you want to so let lose and show us how much you hate us.
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02-05-2011, 09:29 PM
RE: Ask a Young Earth Creationist
(02-05-2011 09:01 PM)ikester7579 Wrote:  Anyway, I'm being ignored because they cannot address my posts. That's okay, most atheist can't do it at the forum I help run either.

I stopped reading when I hit "Time without sin is eternal..." and you went off on your own little tangent where you were proving a timeless eternity within the context of your own little world where anything was possible. And of course you were doing it in the tone of certainty that only theists can possess since they can "know" everything, being a scenario of unfalsifiable hypotheses and intangible metaphysics and all.

And you realize that the word "sin" to a forum of atheists is meaningless right? It's a list of random actions deemed wrong in the fairy tale of religion.



(02-05-2011 09:01 PM)ikester7579 Wrote:  And exactly how would you go about proving your logic?
How can you empirically prove other dimensions don't exist?

I can't. And since there is zero evidence of these alternate dimensions, there is no reason to assume their existence. But I know this argument is lost on theists who believe the burden of proof lies with the non-believer.



And to Spectre:

"Have you ever studied quantum physics?"

-Quantum physicists don't even understand quantum physics, so please, get that physics major... spend 30 more years studying it, then get back to me.


"So I take it that you don't believe in ghosts or anything like that"

-No, I don't believe in ghosts, fairies, dragons, leprechauns, unicorns, pixies, or santa claus. So in that respect, you could say I am a realist.


"God created the universe for his own pleasure."

-It's statements like these that always make it glaringly obvious that gods are made by man. Because so many times, men tell other men the intentions of God. He did this because He wanted this. And He actually meant this when He said this.



-I'm going to bed now because I have to be at work in 7 hours. I'll be back on tomorrow afternoon for more headaches and facepalms. Cheers.

"Ain't got no last words to say, yellow streak right up my spine. The gun in my mouth was real and the taste blew my mind."

"We see you cry. We turn your head. Then we slap your face. We see you try. We see you fail. Some things never change."
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02-05-2011, 09:29 PM (This post was last modified: 02-05-2011 10:25 PM by Glaucus.)
RE: Ask a Young Earth Creationist
(02-05-2011 09:01 PM)ikester7579 Wrote:  That's weird, double post.

Anyway, I'm being ignored because they cannot address my posts. That's okay, most atheist can't do it at the forum I help run either.

You're not being ignored, it's just Spectre's posts are more rational, and therefore, more interesting to discuss. Yours are...something else completely.

Your argument seems to falter with the sheer number of assumptions that must be accepted to make it work. But I've compiled a short list of the assumptions that I've come up with so far:

1A) Eternal time exists and applies during creation
1B) Age is applied to an object at creation (In eternity)
2) Time - Sin = Eternity
3) The claims of the Bible are true
4A) Yahweh (or a Deity in general exists)
4B) That deity is very concerned about appearing nonexistent.
5) Physics aging the star by requiring light to pass through space
6) Time and age are separate

These assumptions are what keeps Occam's Razor sharp. I'm sure you've come across the idea, but it simply recommends that "one should select the model that makes the fewest assumptions, when the hypotheses are equal in everything else." Not only are these amazingly large assumptions, but they are also quite unverifiable. An unverifiable assumption requires people to take it on faith, and that is not the way to understand the workings of the world. But if your assumptions could somehow be proven correct, then you could incorporate them into a model. But it is recommended, in both science and engineering, that if you are making assumptions, you should suggest how these assumptions might be validated, or at least you need to justify them in some logical way. Otherwise, your model will be ignored.

It seems unfair for you to ask us to provide an understanding of our logic, or empirical evidence for our claims, without us asking you to do the same.

And exactly how would you go about proving your logic?
How can you empirically prove any of your assumptions?

P.S. Being passive aggressive in your posts doesn't help get them answered.

Of all the ideas put forth by science, it is the principle of Superposition that can undo any power of the gods. For the accumulation of smaller actions has the ability to create, destroy, and move the world.

"I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul." -W. E. Henley
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02-05-2011, 09:37 PM
RE: Ask a Young Earth Creationist
I disagree, I think that ikester makes some very insightful posts.

"But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and [be] ready always to [give] an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:" Peter 3:15

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02-05-2011, 09:44 PM
RE: Ask a Young Earth Creationist
Spectre, it really is hilarious to see you actually think creation scientists aren't doing and publishing research because of funding issues. In america, the nih funding is incredibly strict, they are having loads of problems with their funding whilst the religious organisations - the templeton foundation, the creation research institute, etc - are reeling in the cash - and which group is publishing more? It seems to me that some of the reasons why they aren't doing research are that it is hard to do research on untestable claims, and many religious poeple and organisations in general detest science, and consider it a conspiracy.

"....One was an atheist, strangely enough, I got the best description from my friend who was an atheist at the time of her experience. She was in a white tunnel, and saw little lights traveling past her. She knew that they were people. She said that she could think like thousands of times faster, and she could think clearly. She said that she was dead for 30 seconds but it was the most blissful 30 seconds in her life...."
So heaven is oxygen deprivation? This is precisely what happens when your brain is starved of oxygen. It doesn't work quite right.
I want to know how she knew those lights were people. With less brain activity, its not surprising that she was a whole lot calmer, or that she was blissful throughout that time - that's why people apply that in bedroom activities.

"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason and intellect has intended us to forego their use." - Galileo

"Every man is guilty of all the good he did not do." - Voltaire
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