Ask a Young Earth Creationist
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03-05-2011, 03:17 PM
RE: Ask a Young Earth Creationist
(03-05-2011 02:28 PM)Zach Wrote:  There is something I want to make clear before getting too far into this (and I haven't read the rest of the follow up posts in this thread yet, I don't have the time to do that right now)

Your goal should not be to explain how, despite all evidence pointing to the contrary, there is a possible way that this one explanation could be correct. That's obvious, there will always be a way to modify or interpret the idea of Creationism to fit with any evidence provided against it. But that same method could be used for any claim one wishes to make, whether it's that I happen to be a psychic or that the Flying Spaghetti Monster created the Earth yesterday.
I see where you are coming from, but it seems like you are trying to tell me how to think, I don't let other people's thinking draw my conclusions. Now, your evidence that points to the contrary, I assure you, is based on interpretations of the evidence by secular scientists. Your point also sort of harmonizes with one of mine, if Creationists can "make" the data fit their beliefs, then it means that secular scientists can do the same thing. But Creationist research hasn't required "fudging" the data, whereas secular scientist's data did indeed require fudging. Inflation, the dynamo theory, and radiometric dating, in which you can get basically any age for a rock based on how you calibrate it. A good model should be able to make correct predictions, the model is even better if you can make the prediction before seeing the data.

(03-05-2011 02:28 PM)Zach Wrote:  I am not accusing you of doing this, at least not yet. But it's something to keep in mind during the discussion. The reasonable way to approach the claim of Creationism is to take the default position(which would be not accepting it) and then see if there is enough evidence to support the claim and not enough to refute it or make it too unlikely to consider over another explanation. And arguing against a skeptical approach will not get you anywhere, you would apply the skepticism that I am applying to your claim when considering any other extraordinary claim that you do not accept(Such as the examples above, Islam, Scientology, etc.)
I always approach everything I am told with skepticism. That is why I read atheist sources, secular sources, christian sources, sometimes I read sources from other religions such as islam and hindu. I am not one of those who has always only read Christian sources and blocked other perspectives. Smile

(03-05-2011 02:28 PM)Zach Wrote:  as long as we're on the same page, I am more than happy to discuss this. If you disagree with a skeptical approach, however, I don't know what to say. Apply a lack of skepticism to every other claim you reject and tell me why you still reject some of them. Or just explain why skepticism should not be applied to this particular claim and yet be applied to other ideas. I really don't mean to beat this to death, but I want to make sure it isn't an issue that's going to crop up after this point Smile
No, I see where you are going, I cover perspective some in one of my first posts. I don't believe that an old earth or a young earth is falsifiable because it is an unverifiable claim. I also want to make it clear that I am not here to convert everyone. I am doing this to 1. See how atheists think. 2. To test and sharpen my ability to defend and support my beliefs. 3. To show that there are YECs who can be rational and defend their claims.




(03-05-2011 02:28 PM)Zach Wrote:  After reading the rest of what you said, I understand that you're explaining some of the many possible ways that creation could have happened and not contradict anything we know today. I accept that it is possible to make it fit into all of our current knowledge. But that isn't what you need to do to persuade someone who is skeptical, as I explained above. Debating what you posted is not going to get us anywhere.
I don't think I can go to thethinkingatheist.com site and expect to convert people. Now, what are you saying? Are you implying that I am trying to harmonize Creation with evolution? Or are you talking about when I was talking about different interpretations of the evidence?

(03-05-2011 02:28 PM)Zach Wrote:  In that case, I guess my real question to you, Spectre, or whoever else is arguing for YEC in this topic is: Do you have an argument that begins without any assumptions that one would not make if they were taking a skeptical approach, or does your entire position rely on abandoning skepticism and accepting assumptions about the existence of God, the way the Earth was created, etc.?
I suppose I could ask you the same question, but this isn't an "ask the atheist" thread. Haha.

The answer is no. Everyone has presuppositions. The best way to validate The Bible using Science is to make models based off of The Bible with predictions of how things should turn out if the literal interpretation of The Bible is true. One of the best examples of this(Because there was NO data for him to help draw his conclusion before he made this model.) Is Dr. Humphrey's model for Uranus and Neptune's magnetic field. He used The Biblical account of the universe being about 6,000 years old and Uranus having a similar creation event to earth. He successfully predicted the strength of both planet's magnetic fields without having to make any modifications to his model. This successful model, while not proving the literal account of Genesis(In the realm of science, origins are unverifiable.) does provide evidence and support for it. The reason being that the prediction was correct and was made before Voyager II reached Uranus or Neptune.

Models on both sides are approached with presuppositions, including The Big Bang and other theories. It is just how it works I suppose, one can not be completely objective no matter what side of the spectrum you are on. Wink

(03-05-2011 02:28 PM)Zach Wrote:  This is the only practical way to approach the issue(In my opinion). Start with facts that anyone can accept, and show what evidence supports your position. Addressing particular perceived inconsistencies with the Creationism argument will get everybody nowhere, and just leave everyone debating about minor points instead of looking at the big picture.
I agree. I showed my first piece of a Creationist prediction that was validated above. Smile Thanks for the insightful post.

"But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and [be] ready always to [give] an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:" Peter 3:15

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03-05-2011, 03:38 PM (This post was last modified: 03-05-2011 03:42 PM by Observer.)
RE: Ask a Young Earth Creationist
@ YEC

Do you think carbon dating is accurate? If not (witch I think you will answer). What are the specialists in fact measuring considering the different results they get?

What is the common YEC explanation for the Moro-reflex?

If there would be one (2 or 3) pieces of YEC evidence you would recommend an non-YEC to examine, what would it be? (provide links if possible, please no whole sites, I have stuff to do Blush ).

The last question might be seriously biased:
What would it take for an open-minded YEC to abandon his world view?

Observer

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Secular humanist
Emotional rationalist
Disclaimer: Don’t mix the personal opinion above with the absolute and objective truth. Remember to think for yourself. Thank you.
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03-05-2011, 03:49 PM
RE: Ask a Young Earth Creationist
(03-05-2011 12:05 AM)ikester7579 Wrote:  Where everyone must think like you or be a moron.

No, but when everyone calls you a moron, you must start to wonder...


Quote:
Ben Stein has more degrees than you could ever dream of. Yet the education did him no good because he disagreed with evolution. Which proves education does not mean a thing unless you believe in evolution. So why should we get it when all you will do is treat us bad still?

HAHAHAHA! This is hilarious! Don't tell me you actually buy into the 'Expelled' crap?

"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason and intellect has intended us to forego their use." - Galileo

"Every man is guilty of all the good he did not do." - Voltaire
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03-05-2011, 04:07 PM
RE: Ask a Young Earth Creationist
I see this thread has taken the expected turn into Crazyville, complete with stops at ItsJustMyFaith City and ItsTrueBecauseIBelieveIt Town.

Here's all I'm seeing:


Spectre: *Asks serious question with a measure of honesty* (Respectful debate follows with the objective truth being the goal we are all working towards)


ikester7579: *Uppity dismissive comment meant to antagonize and incite a fight among the posters, so that he may then go "see how angry these atheists are?"

*Parting comment based on absolutely nothing, followed by a arrogant self-masturbatory pat on the back (You see? No one can answer my questions! MUHAHAHAHA!)*


Ron: *Appears briefly to congratulate Ikester on his wisdom and apparent victory and contributes nothing of value to the forum*




-A few random notes to keep in mind-

Atheists do NOT have a collective mandate or belief system. There is nothing about the posters on this board that you could say besides "you reject the belief in gods" that would be accurate about all of us. You don't have to believe in evolution or know anything about science to be an atheist.

Stop spamming the Like feature on each other. You look like children.

Stop using the Bible as proof that the Bible is accurate. It's a work of fiction to everyone here. If I claimed that there once existed orcs and dark elves and quoted R.A. Salvatore to bolster my claims, would any of you be swayed?

Please provide some semblance of evidence with your outlandish claims that you personally know what God did and why he did it... or that time somehow doesn't apply to eternity.

Thank you.

"Ain't got no last words to say, yellow streak right up my spine. The gun in my mouth was real and the taste blew my mind."

"We see you cry. We turn your head. Then we slap your face. We see you try. We see you fail. Some things never change."
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03-05-2011, 04:44 PM
RE: Ask a Young Earth Creationist
How sure are you that the bible we have before us today translated well enough to carry over the exact meaning of each and every bible verse? Often times the language between the KJV and the NIV bibles open things up to very different interpretations of the same bible verse. If this is the case then how can we believe in a book that is likely very different from the original texts.

"The Tanakh was mainly written in Biblical Hebrew, with some portions (notably in Daniel and Ezra) in Biblical Aramaic. From the 9th century to the 15th century, Jewish scholars, today known as Masoretes, compared the text of all known biblical manuscripts in an effort to create a unified, standardized text. A series of highly similar texts eventually emerged, and any of these texts are known as Masoretic Texts (MT). The Masoretes also added vowel points (called niqqud) to the text, since the original text only contained consonant letters. This sometimes required the selection of an interpretation, since some words differ only in their vowels—their meaning can vary in accordance with the vowels chosen. In antiquity, variant Hebrew readings existed, some of which have survived in the Samaritan Pentateuch, the Dead Sea scrolls, and other ancient fragments, as well as being attested in ancient versions in other languages."

This was taken from the wiki page on biblical translations. I will not argue the validity of wiki and that is not even part of the argument. What I am mostly interested in the following:

"This sometimes required the selection of an interpretation, since some words differ only in their vowels—their meaning can vary in accordance with the vowels chosen."

So somebodies interpretation lead to the bible we have today. How certain are you that the original meaning and ideas carried over from the original? Why should I change my life view based on a book that might not mean the same as it did when it was written?
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03-05-2011, 04:52 PM
 
RE: Ask a Young Earth Creationist
(03-05-2011 04:07 PM)Buddy Christ Wrote:  I see this thread has taken the expected turn into Crazyville, complete with stops at ItsJustMyFaith City and ItsTrueBecauseIBelieveIt Town.

Again, as I countered to Glaucus, the exact same argument can be made against evolution and atheism as well. But, as I gather from the rest of your post, you don’t like that, nor do you want to hear it

(03-05-2011 04:07 PM)Buddy Christ Wrote:  Here's all I'm seeing:

Ron: *Appears briefly to congratulate Ikester on his wisdom and apparent victory and contributes nothing of value to the forum*

Indeed, unfortunately for your observations, you err. I, in fact, said absolutely nothing to, or about Ikester. I did however address the fallacious arguments Glaucus posited. If you somehow gathered that as congratulations for Ikester, you may want to work on your reasoning processes. And if you find all of this as no value to the forum, I suppose you can chalk that up to your previous misunderstandings as well.

I was basically looking for intelligent and honest discourse. But once again, all I’ve found (for the most part) is name calling, spurious accusations and sarcasm.
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03-05-2011, 05:10 PM
RE: Ask a Young Earth Creationist
(03-05-2011 04:44 PM)riseinside Wrote:  How sure are you that the bible we have before us today translated well enough to carry over the exact meaning of each and every bible verse? Often times the language between the KJV and the NIV bibles open things up to very different interpretations of the same bible verse. If this is the case then how can we believe in a book that is likely very different from the original texts.

More than that, you start with the original texts, penned by the illiterate of that time period. Even the inspired word of God could have been lost in the lack of vocabulary or bias of the authors (in one of my college classes, we attempted to describe a political occurrence as non-biased as we could and found it to be nearly impossible).

Then you have the many translations from language to language (and anyone who's watched a Japanese cartoon with English subs knows how that usually turns out... "Congrturations hero! You are mighty best man of fight. Surely we have superior economy from you victory!")

Then you have Constantine's reformations at the Council of Nicaea where they cut and pasted books of the Bible until they had something they agreed on.

Then you have the metaphors and loose wording and figurative terms that may or may not mean one thing or another.

So on and so on.

All we have now is a Frankenstein of pages glued together and written by men trying to control the masses.



-And from now on, let's play a fun game where you just post facts and ideas so that our thin skinned guests will feel as "unthreatened" as possible.

"Ain't got no last words to say, yellow streak right up my spine. The gun in my mouth was real and the taste blew my mind."

"We see you cry. We turn your head. Then we slap your face. We see you try. We see you fail. Some things never change."
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03-05-2011, 05:19 PM
RE: Ask a Young Earth Creationist
(03-05-2011 04:52 PM)Ron Wrote:  I was basically looking for intelligent and honest discourse. But once again, all I’ve found (for the most part) is name calling, spurious accusations and sarcasm.

I very recently told someone that I no longer poke my head into these debates unless my bullshit meter goes off in a big way. (And not to do with theism or athism).

BULLSHIT.

I've read the entire thread, and for the most part the discourse has been honest and intelligent. The "spurious accusations and sarcasm" is definitely present, but it is most definitely NOT the bulk of the thread.

Ron, you are simply reading what you want/expect to hear. This, unfortunately, seems to be commonplace these days. Go back and read the thread without presuppositions, and you may find some interesting points of view, and some healthy debate. (With some spurious accusations and sarcasm thrown in. Kinda like sprinkles on a doughnut. It's only a small fraction of that tasty yet deadly treat, but alas, so many see only those devilish sprinkles)

So many cats, so few good recipes.
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03-05-2011, 05:25 PM
RE: Ask a Young Earth Creationist
(03-05-2011 04:52 PM)Ron Wrote:  Again, as I countered to Glaucus, the exact same argument can be made against evolution and atheism as well. But, as I gather from the rest of your post, you don’t like that, nor do you want to hear it

I did however address the fallacious arguments Glaucus posited.

And I addressed your addressing of them. I'm kind of waiting for a response, but take your time.

Of all the ideas put forth by science, it is the principle of Superposition that can undo any power of the gods. For the accumulation of smaller actions has the ability to create, destroy, and move the world.

"I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul." -W. E. Henley
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03-05-2011, 05:41 PM
RE: Ask a Young Earth Creationist
(03-05-2011 05:19 PM)Stark Raving Wrote:  The "spurious accusations and sarcasm" is definitely present, but it is most definitely NOT the bulk of the thread.


Yeah, that'd be me. I'm one of the more anti-theist atheists on this thread, so my posts are usually tinged in a seething rage with a hint of sarcastic venom.

Reason being is that knowledge and intelligence rank very high on the List of Things I Value. (I majored in Philosophy for my first 2 years of college for Allah's sake. That major is for people interested in learning and not for being successful in finding a job.)

And so when Christians hold book burnings to "protect the teachings of Christ" by getting rid of logic or when they insist that Creationism (backed by no science and just as probable as the several other religious creation stories) be taught alongside evolution (backed by a mountain of science and held as most probable by the majority of scientists) as "two equally probable theories," I kind of die a little inside.

Also, my sister has diabetes, my grandma died from diabetes, and my mom, grandma, and several other relatives have cancer and the most promising cure for both these diseases? Yup, stem cell research. Which is being met with resistance due to the idea that zygotes have souls.

Then you throw in all the church scandals, anti-condom teachings to aids infested countries, wars, etc ...and yeah, I tend to get a little violent.

"Ain't got no last words to say, yellow streak right up my spine. The gun in my mouth was real and the taste blew my mind."

"We see you cry. We turn your head. Then we slap your face. We see you try. We see you fail. Some things never change."
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