Ask an Agnostic
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14-07-2012, 05:47 PM
RE: Ask an Agnostic
(14-07-2012 05:38 PM)sillinde Wrote:  How does it seem dishonest? An atheist doesn't believe in a God. How is that dishonest? I don't need proof to NOT believe in God, I need proof to believe it.

I don't have proof there isn't an oldschool hipster camera orbiting jupiter, but I don't believe it. I don't remember who said that, but it was a physicist I believe.

You state that you need proof to not believe, but that logic breaks when we start applying it to everything.
Yeah, see? And even if you got proof, you ain't got proof. Big Grin

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14-07-2012, 05:51 PM (This post was last modified: 14-07-2012 07:16 PM by ClydeLee.)
RE: Ask an Agnostic
(14-07-2012 05:37 PM)PeacefulSkeptic Wrote:  Good response! I'm glad you brought that up because I think that there might be some Atheists that think that God is "truly" non-existent.
(14-07-2012 05:34 PM)morondog Wrote:  There is no God. Raaaaaa! Tongue

We're actually mostly agnostic atheists here.

Agnostic meaning we don't claim gnosis, knowledge.

Atheist meaning that we *believe* that there is no God.

Belief in this case being the answer we have settled on as most likely to be correct, not claimed as objective *truth*.

Except that practically... my assessment of the probabilities puts it at God slightly less likely than the Easter Bunny (EB has less constraints to fulfill and is thus more probable, all he has to do is leave Easter eggs for kiddies. God has to run the universe while constrained by the rules in his book).

This level of certainty *is* gnosis effectively, in practice. What people refer to as "6.9" on the Dawkins scale .
I think you are making an assumption that many atheists here believe in such a thing. A good amount who have poked around in these topics fall under titles of agnostic atheists. Not all of the people here, but many are what some have called as the "rational atheists" or new-atheists. The movement that follows empiricism and rational evidence as how one defines truth. In here there are others who will entirely reject the idea of God and many in the world growing who think that way as well. Not that there is a huge problem with those types of people, but I think that those are the types that wind up converting to religious believe later on in life.

The term Atheism is well defined. It's misinformation spread often by conservative Christians and even some agnostics who think by saying they're just agnostic, they are taking a non-offensive assertive position.

The prefix A- by definition means without or lacking of.. Theism is a question of belief, so it means you are without believe in a God. If you don't have an active belief in a God, by definition you are an atheist. Not everyone likes to think of it that way but it's the base of what the word means.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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14-07-2012, 05:54 PM
RE: Ask an Agnostic
Disagree. It's not just as unknowable, as in 50/50.

We need a definition of God first. If God doesn't interact or our detection instruments are too weak then God effectively doesn't exist and the best answer we have is that he hasn't been discovered and it is best to live as if he wasn't there.

If God *does* interact, a la God of the Hebrews, then there should be some detectable pillars of fire and stuff. Dawkins goes into the ways in which a God who acted as the Christian God does is explicitly a scientific hypothesis from which deductions and predictions can be made in The God Delusion.

Of course if you weaken the God concept enough you eventually reach the non-disprovable position which is equivalent to God = non-interacting Easter Bunny which we call deism. Tongue
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14-07-2012, 06:04 PM
RE: Ask an Agnostic
Waiting for Ghost to set ya'll straight...in 4...3...2...1...

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14-07-2012, 06:08 PM
RE: Ask an Agnostic
(14-07-2012 06:04 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  Waiting for Ghost to set ya'll straight...in 4...3...2...1...

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LOL Big Grin Ain't that the truth. Say the word agnosticism and he shall appear Tongue
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14-07-2012, 06:37 PM
RE: Ask an Agnostic
(14-07-2012 06:08 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(14-07-2012 06:04 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  Waiting for Ghost to set ya'll straight...in 4...3...2...1...

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LOL Big Grin Ain't that the truth. Say the word agnosticism and he shall appear Tongue
I think the proper incantation requires referring to Ghost as an atheist. Even though he is without belief in god, he is insulted by being identified so. Consider

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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14-07-2012, 06:44 PM
RE: Ask an Agnostic
(14-07-2012 06:37 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(14-07-2012 06:08 PM)morondog Wrote:  LOL Big Grin Ain't that the truth. Say the word agnosticism and he shall appear Tongue
I think the proper incantation requires referring to Ghost as an atheist. Even though he is without belief in god, he is insulted by being identified so. Consider
ooo now you've torn it Rolleyes
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14-07-2012, 07:02 PM
RE: Ask an Agnostic
(14-07-2012 06:44 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(14-07-2012 06:37 PM)Chas Wrote:  I think the proper incantation requires referring to Ghost as an atheist. Even though he is without belief in god, he is insulted by being identified so. Consider
ooo now you've torn it Rolleyes
He's being all terse and deadly again. Laughat

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14-07-2012, 07:31 PM
RE: Ask an Agnostic
(14-07-2012 05:36 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Why ask an agnostic? They have no knowledge. Tongue

Here's the Atheism wiki . You can see there's all kinds of definitions. According to that page, the term has a history of being derogatory and not eponymous - not something someone would name themselves. But I personally prefer the insult, I don't believe in your god; which is what I feel to be the most concise definition of my atheism.

Fuck, I'm a prophet, motherfucking creator dude showed up at my place, some might think that disqualifies one from atheism. But fuck no; I'll give it to ya straight - ain't no understanding no motherfucking god. Big Grin

Neither term is really necessary, but the way I see it, there ain't no Gnostics we really need to counter. Thumbsup
"I don't believe in your god" is certainly preferable to the dogmatic militant claim,"there is no god". "Belief" is not the same as concrete certainty, which is also uncertain in the big picture.......... Cool
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14-07-2012, 07:51 PM
RE: Ask an Agnostic
Define a god and in almost all cases, that god can be proven not to exist. Be it through inconsistencies in the characterization of that god (self-contradiction) or by inconsistencies with known facts about the universe. One can prove that the God of the Bible is false by showing the Bible itself to be inaccurate in that it both contradicts itself and contradicts natural laws (flat earth, etc).

Discount the Bible and you are no longer dealing with the Christian God, but the God that a particular person has invented in their own mind. To be honest, nearly all Christians already redefine God in their own terms and have different concepts of God - just look at Kingsy and how different he is from most Christians, or how there are hundreds/thousands of denominations of Christians. To prove that God false, you simply need to get them to commit to what defines their God - if they claim it is the Bible, your work is easy, but they'll probably shift the goalposts on you and modify the Bible's definition of God. They'll just say you're interpreting it wrong, it actually means this: (insert completely fabricated explanation that is impossible to get from just reading the text) or "it's a metaphor" (again, without any reason to believe this is the case from reading the text).

IMO, claiming to be an agnostic both makes you seem intellectually lazy and ignorant of what the terms mean. Regardless of who first coined the term, as is mentioned by ClydeLee, the prefix "a" means "without" and "theism" means "belief in a deity" (in a very simplistic way of defining things). Agnosticism is only a claim as to whether knowledge can be known for certain or not. Some famous non-theists go by the term of agnostic (such as Neil deGrasse Tyson) for the same reason as you, but I think it's simply because they've misunderstood the definition or they're too cowardly to identify as atheist and possibly deal with negative reactions from the public (which is also ignorant of the definitions).

Better without God, and happier too.
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