Asking for prayers?
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26-09-2014, 11:36 AM
RE: Asking for prayers?
(25-09-2014 03:08 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  
(25-09-2014 12:08 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  You wouldn't agree with me that once the doctors are "done" that you and I should do all we can to save the person's life? Did you understand how that was what I meant with my last post?

Here's a quote from a study in 2006 on prayer. This was the largest study on prayer, called STEP, the Study of the Therapeutic Effects of Intercessory Prayer

"In the study, the researchers monitored 1,802 patients at six hospitals who received coronary bypass surgery, in which doctors reroute circulation around a clogged vein or artery.

The patients were broken into three groups. Two were prayed for; the third was not. Half the patients who received the prayers were told that they were being prayed for; half were told that they might or might not receive prayers.

The researchers asked the members of three congregations — St. Paul's Monastery in St. Paul; the Community of Teresian Carmelites in Worcester, Mass.; and Silent Unity, a Missouri prayer ministry near Kansas City — to deliver the prayers, using the patients' first names and the first initials of their last names.

The congregations were told that they could pray in their own ways, but they were instructed to include the phrase, "for a successful surgery with a quick, healthy recovery and no complications."

Analyzing complications in the 30 days after the operations, the researchers found no differences between those patients who were prayed for and those who were not.

In another of the study's findings, a significantly higher number of the patients who knew that they were being prayed for — 59 percent — suffered complications, compared with 51 percent of those who were uncertain. The authors left open the possibility that this was a chance finding. But they said that being aware of the strangers' prayers also may have caused some of the patients a kind of performance anxiety.

"It may have made them uncertain, wondering am I so sick they had to call in their prayer team?" Dr. Bethea said.

The study also found that more patients in the uninformed prayer group — 18 percent — suffered major complications, like heart attack or stroke, compared with 13 percent in the group that did not receive prayers. In their report, the researchers suggested that this finding might also be a result of chance.

One reason the study was so widely anticipated was that it was led by Dr. Benson, who in his work has emphasized the soothing power of personal prayer and meditation."

At best prayer has a placebo effect, calming a person down but meditation will do the same thing with no god involved. Other than that it doesn't do anything.

Were the STEP prayers fervent? Were they according to the will of God? Are you unaware (it's okay if you are) of these two most important conditions for effectual prayer?

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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26-09-2014, 11:40 AM
RE: Asking for prayers?
(25-09-2014 12:56 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(25-09-2014 12:07 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Have you done a study on the highly anomalous facts of water structure and behavior, which seem all but miraculous?

So miraculous that they don't exist.

Please cite a peer-reviewed study that shows any evidence of it.

Would you require a peer-reviewed paper to "inform" you that water goes upward and outward as it solidifies rather than sinking downward? Have you heard of sublimation? Of "super-critical" water?

Did you not know of the importance of water to human life, that the Lord Jesus Christ gives living water, and that water plays a function in blood, which is life, carries life and was shed for your sin and mine? The Q can do most anything, but only Christ can raise both himself and others to life again, or hadn't you heard?

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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26-09-2014, 11:42 AM
RE: Asking for prayers?
(24-09-2014 12:39 PM)Impulse Wrote:  
(24-09-2014 10:12 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Since prayer can change people, not an immutable creator, did you know that when I ask others to pray I'm inviting them to grow and learn? And since prayer changes people in several ways, including comfort, have you thought how wonderful it must be to pray to the Good Lord when doctors cannot cure a disease, for one example?
Wonderful? Well that's a sick way to look at it. Dodgy It would be far better for God to take away all the disease right from the start and skip all the suffering and needless ego-feeding prayer.

By the way, doctors cure far more diseases than any God ever did.
Doctors: countless number
Gods: 0

If Jehovah took away all the disease before it started, how would you know what had happened?

If Jehovah made Ebola disappear right... now... would the world acknowledge that he did it?

If Jehovah took away your disease as it ran its course, how would you know what had happened?

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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26-09-2014, 11:58 AM
RE: Asking for prayers?
(26-09-2014 11:36 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(25-09-2014 03:08 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  Here's a quote from a study in 2006 on prayer. This was the largest study on prayer, called STEP, the Study of the Therapeutic Effects of Intercessory Prayer

"In the study, the researchers monitored 1,802 patients at six hospitals who received coronary bypass surgery, in which doctors reroute circulation around a clogged vein or artery.

The patients were broken into three groups. Two were prayed for; the third was not. Half the patients who received the prayers were told that they were being prayed for; half were told that they might or might not receive prayers.

The researchers asked the members of three congregations — St. Paul's Monastery in St. Paul; the Community of Teresian Carmelites in Worcester, Mass.; and Silent Unity, a Missouri prayer ministry near Kansas City — to deliver the prayers, using the patients' first names and the first initials of their last names.

The congregations were told that they could pray in their own ways, but they were instructed to include the phrase, "for a successful surgery with a quick, healthy recovery and no complications."

Analyzing complications in the 30 days after the operations, the researchers found no differences between those patients who were prayed for and those who were not.

In another of the study's findings, a significantly higher number of the patients who knew that they were being prayed for — 59 percent — suffered complications, compared with 51 percent of those who were uncertain. The authors left open the possibility that this was a chance finding. But they said that being aware of the strangers' prayers also may have caused some of the patients a kind of performance anxiety.

"It may have made them uncertain, wondering am I so sick they had to call in their prayer team?" Dr. Bethea said.

The study also found that more patients in the uninformed prayer group — 18 percent — suffered major complications, like heart attack or stroke, compared with 13 percent in the group that did not receive prayers. In their report, the researchers suggested that this finding might also be a result of chance.

One reason the study was so widely anticipated was that it was led by Dr. Benson, who in his work has emphasized the soothing power of personal prayer and meditation."

At best prayer has a placebo effect, calming a person down but meditation will do the same thing with no god involved. Other than that it doesn't do anything.

Were the STEP prayers fervent? Were they according to the will of God? Are you unaware (it's okay if you are) of these two most important conditions for effectual prayer?

Were the STEP prayers fervent you ask?

"The study enlisted members of three Christian groups, two Catholic and one Protestant, to provide prayer throughout the multi-year study. The researchers approached other denominations, but none were able to make the time commitments that the study required."


Theists, like yourself, always try to find a glitch with studies that don't confirm their belief.

"The STEP team, composed of investigators at six academic medical centers, including Baptist Memorial Hospital in Memphis, Tennessee; Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center in Boston, Massachusetts; Integris Baptist Medical Center in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma; Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Minnesota; St. Joseph's Hospital in Tampa, Florida; Washington Hospital Center in Washington, D.C; and the Mind/Body Medical Institute, found that intercessory prayer had no effect on recovery from surgery without complications. The study also found that patients who knew they were receiving intercessory prayer fared worse. The paper appears in the April issue of American Heart Journal."


If prayer really worked we'd just send people over to pray the Ebola away instead of spending millions trying to fight it with the US military and armies of medical teams. Prayer doesn't do shit.

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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26-09-2014, 12:33 PM
RE: Asking for prayers?
(26-09-2014 11:42 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  If Jehovah took away all the disease before it started, how would you know what had happened?
Why would I need to know?

(26-09-2014 11:42 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  If Jehovah made Ebola disappear right... now... would the world acknowledge that he did it?
No, Jehovah would get no ego stroking. And your point is...?

(26-09-2014 11:42 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  If Jehovah took away your disease as it ran its course, how would you know what had happened?
In your world where you believe "Jehovah" actually exists, the proper question is "If Jehovah had never created disease in the first place, would Jehovah be more worthy of the title "God"? Consider

I am not accountable to any God. I am accountable to myself - and not because I think I am God as some theists would try to assert - but because, no matter what actions I take, thoughts I think, or words I utter, I have to be able to live with myself.
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26-09-2014, 07:05 PM
RE: Asking for prayers?
(26-09-2014 11:42 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(24-09-2014 12:39 PM)Impulse Wrote:  Wonderful? Well that's a sick way to look at it. Dodgy It would be far better for God to take away all the disease right from the start and skip all the suffering and needless ego-feeding prayer.

By the way, doctors cure far more diseases than any God ever did.
Doctors: countless number
Gods: 0

If Jehovah took away all the disease before it started, how would you know what had happened?

If Jehovah made Ebola disappear right... now... would the world acknowledge that he did it?

If Jehovah took away your disease as it ran its course, how would you know what had happened?

LOL. So when Hitler recovered from the flu Jehovah did it? Laugh out load

First you need to prove that Jehovah exists. If you cannot prove it, then the probability is that he does not exist. When something actually exists there will always be ways of proving it.

Tell ya' what. Have god meet me at the Starbucks at 5th and Madison here in Portland next Friday, the coffee's on me. I'll be waiting.

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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26-09-2014, 07:43 PM
RE: Asking for prayers?
(26-09-2014 11:36 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(25-09-2014 03:08 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  Here's a quote from a study in 2006 on prayer. This was the largest study on prayer, called STEP, the Study of the Therapeutic Effects of Intercessory Prayer

"In the study, the researchers monitored 1,802 patients at six hospitals who received coronary bypass surgery, in which doctors reroute circulation around a clogged vein or artery.

The patients were broken into three groups. Two were prayed for; the third was not. Half the patients who received the prayers were told that they were being prayed for; half were told that they might or might not receive prayers.

The researchers asked the members of three congregations — St. Paul's Monastery in St. Paul; the Community of Teresian Carmelites in Worcester, Mass.; and Silent Unity, a Missouri prayer ministry near Kansas City — to deliver the prayers, using the patients' first names and the first initials of their last names.

The congregations were told that they could pray in their own ways, but they were instructed to include the phrase, "for a successful surgery with a quick, healthy recovery and no complications."

Analyzing complications in the 30 days after the operations, the researchers found no differences between those patients who were prayed for and those who were not.

In another of the study's findings, a significantly higher number of the patients who knew that they were being prayed for — 59 percent — suffered complications, compared with 51 percent of those who were uncertain. The authors left open the possibility that this was a chance finding. But they said that being aware of the strangers' prayers also may have caused some of the patients a kind of performance anxiety.

"It may have made them uncertain, wondering am I so sick they had to call in their prayer team?" Dr. Bethea said.

The study also found that more patients in the uninformed prayer group — 18 percent — suffered major complications, like heart attack or stroke, compared with 13 percent in the group that did not receive prayers. In their report, the researchers suggested that this finding might also be a result of chance.

One reason the study was so widely anticipated was that it was led by Dr. Benson, who in his work has emphasized the soothing power of personal prayer and meditation."

At best prayer has a placebo effect, calming a person down but meditation will do the same thing with no god involved. Other than that it doesn't do anything.

Were the STEP prayers fervent? Were they according to the will of God? Are you unaware (it's okay if you are) of these two most important conditions for effectual prayer?

Prayer is pitiful. The idea that the laws of nature and the vagaries of chance respond to wailings and incantations is pathetic. Instead of cowering before an imaginary master who moves in mysterious ways, we should analyze what went wrong and why to prevent a repeat. That means putting our thinking caps on and asking for help from our fellow men, who, unlike God, will answer back. That’s productive and empowering. Praying isn’t.
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27-09-2014, 07:16 AM
RE: Asking for prayers?
(26-09-2014 11:36 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(25-09-2014 03:08 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  Here's a quote from a study in 2006 on prayer. This was the largest study on prayer, called STEP, the Study of the Therapeutic Effects of Intercessory Prayer

"In the study, the researchers monitored 1,802 patients at six hospitals who received coronary bypass surgery, in which doctors reroute circulation around a clogged vein or artery.

The patients were broken into three groups. Two were prayed for; the third was not. Half the patients who received the prayers were told that they were being prayed for; half were told that they might or might not receive prayers.

The researchers asked the members of three congregations — St. Paul's Monastery in St. Paul; the Community of Teresian Carmelites in Worcester, Mass.; and Silent Unity, a Missouri prayer ministry near Kansas City — to deliver the prayers, using the patients' first names and the first initials of their last names.

The congregations were told that they could pray in their own ways, but they were instructed to include the phrase, "for a successful surgery with a quick, healthy recovery and no complications."

Analyzing complications in the 30 days after the operations, the researchers found no differences between those patients who were prayed for and those who were not.

In another of the study's findings, a significantly higher number of the patients who knew that they were being prayed for — 59 percent — suffered complications, compared with 51 percent of those who were uncertain. The authors left open the possibility that this was a chance finding. But they said that being aware of the strangers' prayers also may have caused some of the patients a kind of performance anxiety.

"It may have made them uncertain, wondering am I so sick they had to call in their prayer team?" Dr. Bethea said.

The study also found that more patients in the uninformed prayer group — 18 percent — suffered major complications, like heart attack or stroke, compared with 13 percent in the group that did not receive prayers. In their report, the researchers suggested that this finding might also be a result of chance.

One reason the study was so widely anticipated was that it was led by Dr. Benson, who in his work has emphasized the soothing power of personal prayer and meditation."

At best prayer has a placebo effect, calming a person down but meditation will do the same thing with no god involved. Other than that it doesn't do anything.

Were the STEP prayers fervent? Were they according to the will of God? Are you unaware (it's okay if you are) of these two most important conditions for effectual prayer?

You just make shit up, don't you.

Please cite the peer-reviewed study that shows what makes effectual prayer. Drinking Beverage

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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27-09-2014, 07:19 AM
RE: Asking for prayers?
(26-09-2014 11:40 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(25-09-2014 12:56 PM)Chas Wrote:  So miraculous that they don't exist.

Please cite a peer-reviewed study that shows any evidence of it.

Would you require a peer-reviewed paper to "inform" you that water goes upward and outward as it solidifies rather than sinking downward? Have you heard of sublimation? Of "super-critical" water?

Did you not know of the importance of water to human life, that the Lord Jesus Christ gives living water, and that water plays a function in blood, which is life, carries life and was shed for your sin and mine? The Q can do most anything, but only Christ can raise both himself and others to life again, or hadn't you heard?

There are many research papers on the phase transitions of water.

Please cite the research papers on Christ raising people from the dead.

Pro tip: The Bible is not a research paper.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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27-09-2014, 08:02 AM
RE: Asking for prayers?
A prayer is a mental or verbal incantation in which you are trying to magically alter reality or making a wish to a genie to alter reality on your behalf.

The best and most effective way to alter reality is to get off your ass and do something.

Do religious terrorists pray for bad things to happen ?
No, they don't. They get out there and make something happen.

They know prayer doesn't do shit.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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