Asking for prayers?
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27-09-2014, 09:36 AM
RE: Asking for prayers?
(26-09-2014 11:58 AM)dancefortwo Wrote:  
(26-09-2014 11:36 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Were the STEP prayers fervent? Were they according to the will of God? Are you unaware (it's okay if you are) of these two most important conditions for effectual prayer?

Were the STEP prayers fervent you ask?

"The study enlisted members of three Christian groups, two Catholic and one Protestant, to provide prayer throughout the multi-year study. The researchers approached other denominations, but none were able to make the time commitments that the study required."
Smartass

Theists, like yourself, always try to find a glitch with studies that don't confirm their belief.

"The STEP team, composed of investigators at six academic medical centers, including Baptist Memorial Hospital in Memphis, Tennessee; Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center in Boston, Massachusetts; Integris Baptist Medical Center in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma; Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Minnesota; St. Joseph's Hospital in Tampa, Florida; Washington Hospital Center in Washington, D.C; and the Mind/Body Medical Institute, found that intercessory prayer had no effect on recovery from surgery without complications. The study also found that patients who knew they were receiving intercessory prayer fared worse. The paper appears in the April issue of American Heart Journal."


If prayer really worked we'd just send people over to pray the Ebola away instead of spending millions trying to fight it with the US military and armies of medical teams. Prayer doesn't do shit.


Would you mind explaining your point a bit further? How is it a glitch that the study you asked me to consider does not include the two most important requirements for answered prayer in the Christian scriptures?

For another example of what I mean, surely you have been told by a Christian before that it isn't just praying to "god" but praying fervently that the Lord's will is accomplished? You really never heard that before mentioning this study that "closes the research" for you?

I'd ask you one more thing, if I may, please? Where in your work in science did you come to understand that scientists will look at one study only and then draw final, irrevocable conclusions?

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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27-09-2014, 09:39 AM
RE: Asking for prayers?
(26-09-2014 12:33 PM)Impulse Wrote:  
(26-09-2014 11:42 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  If Jehovah took away all the disease before it started, how would you know what had happened?
Why would I need to know?

(26-09-2014 11:42 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  If Jehovah made Ebola disappear right... now... would the world acknowledge that he did it?
No, Jehovah would get no ego stroking. And your point is...?

(26-09-2014 11:42 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  If Jehovah took away your disease as it ran its course, how would you know what had happened?
In your world where you believe "Jehovah" actually exists, the proper question is "If Jehovah had never created disease in the first place, would Jehovah be more worthy of the title "God"? Consider

May I respectfully ask you to read my three questions again along with your responses, to see if you have any presuppositional assumptions or biases you've presented?

Would you be offended if I invited you to try to re-answer all three of my questions, this time as if both of us are open-minded and wanting to carefully consider the other person's opinions? I hope it helps you (as it sure as heck helps me!) that I pledge to be open and non-judgmental of your opinions, and consider them with my rationalist brain?

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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27-09-2014, 01:01 PM
RE: Asking for prayers?
(27-09-2014 09:39 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(26-09-2014 12:33 PM)Impulse Wrote:  Why would I need to know?

No, Jehovah would get no ego stroking. And your point is...?

In your world where you believe "Jehovah" actually exists, the proper question is "If Jehovah had never created disease in the first place, would Jehovah be more worthy of the title "God"? Consider

May I respectfully ask you to read my three questions again along with your responses, to see if you have any presuppositional assumptions or biases you've presented?

Would you be offended if I invited you to try to re-answer all three of my questions, this time as if both of us are open-minded and wanting to carefully consider the other person's opinions? I hope it helps you (as it sure as heck helps me!) that I pledge to be open and non-judgmental of your opinions, and consider them with my rationalist brain?
This is hysterically funny! Laugh out load I didn't expect you to be this desperate! Laughat

And no. Drinking Beverage

@DonaldTrump, Patriotism is not honoring your flag no matter what your country/leader does. It's doing whatever it takes to make your country the best it can be as long as its not violent.
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30-09-2014, 09:51 AM
RE: Asking for prayers?
(27-09-2014 01:01 PM)Impulse Wrote:  
(27-09-2014 09:39 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  May I respectfully ask you to read my three questions again along with your responses, to see if you have any presuppositional assumptions or biases you've presented?

Would you be offended if I invited you to try to re-answer all three of my questions, this time as if both of us are open-minded and wanting to carefully consider the other person's opinions? I hope it helps you (as it sure as heck helps me!) that I pledge to be open and non-judgmental of your opinions, and consider them with my rationalist brain?
This is hysterically funny! Laugh out load I didn't expect you to be this desperate! Laughat

And no. Drinking Beverage

Do you not understand that it undermines your stance as an atheist to be disrespectful in this discussion? That while I'd like to be firm-minded and go by facts above anecdotes, that I find my thoughts wandering to "Well, here's yet another atheist who is dismissive when I offer respectful, reasonable discussion"?

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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01-10-2014, 10:46 AM
RE: Asking for prayers?
(30-09-2014 09:51 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Do you not understand that it undermines your stance as an atheist to be disrespectful in this discussion? That while I'd like to be firm-minded and go by facts above anecdotes, that I find my thoughts wandering to "Well, here's yet another atheist who is dismissive when I offer respectful, reasonable discussion"?
Your previous reply to me amounted to "I didn't like your replies, can you please give me different ones?" Speaking of disrespectful. Dodgy Plus, two of the three replies I gave you were questions which you apparently couldn't be bothered answering. If you don't want disrespectful replies, then don't give them. Drinking Beverage

@DonaldTrump, Patriotism is not honoring your flag no matter what your country/leader does. It's doing whatever it takes to make your country the best it can be as long as its not violent.
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02-10-2014, 08:24 AM
RE: Asking for prayers?
(26-09-2014 12:33 PM)Impulse Wrote:  
(26-09-2014 11:42 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  If Jehovah took away all the disease before it started, how would you know what had happened?
Why would I need to know?

(26-09-2014 11:42 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  If Jehovah made Ebola disappear right... now... would the world acknowledge that he did it?
No, Jehovah would get no ego stroking. And your point is...?

(26-09-2014 11:42 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  If Jehovah took away your disease as it ran its course, how would you know what had happened?
In your world where you believe "Jehovah" actually exists, the proper question is "If Jehovah had never created disease in the first place, would Jehovah be more worthy of the title "God"? Consider

Why would you need to know? Because you have set the false premise of "If God is good there would be nothing bad" and thus you wouldn't know what good is... or take the flip side of the coin, which is...? How do you know what good and bad are? What are your standards for judging?

No, Jehovah would get no ego stroking. And your point is...? That God does lovely things all the time and does not get acknowledged or thanked. This reduces your "view" of God and confirms that you can be open or closed to God.

In your world where you believe "Jehovah" actually exists, the proper question is "If Jehovah had never created disease in the first place, would Jehovah be more worthy of the title "God"? Consider No. "God" is still what the dictionary calls, "God". You meant to say WORSHIPPED. You choose to worship or not, you choose to love or not, hate or not. Your moral accountability for sin doesn't just include the commandments about loving God but about hate and love. Do you disagree? Let The Q give you the answer. If you disagree that you are morally accountable for love and hate because of an atheist predisposition toward determinism you have a cop out.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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02-10-2014, 08:41 AM
RE: Asking for prayers?
Thank you for finally answering some questions and for doing so without answering with more questions. Thumbsup

(02-10-2014 08:24 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Why would you need to know? Because you have set the false premise of "If God is good there would be nothing bad" and thus you wouldn't know what good is... or take the flip side of the coin, which is...? How do you know what good and bad are? What are your standards for judging?
First, to be clear, we're talking about the omnipotent, omniscient, all-loving god (or at least I am - correct me if you're not discussing the same). So then yes, if such a god existed, there would be no bad. If there was no bad, everything would be good. Therefore, there would be no need to know it's good because there would be no bad to contrast it with. And there would be nothing bad about there being no bad.

(02-10-2014 08:24 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  No, Jehovah would get no ego stroking. And your point is...? That God does lovely things all the time and does not get acknowledged or thanked. This reduces your "view" of God and confirms that you can be open or closed to God.
A perfect god has no emotional need for approval or thanks and would not care. But I disagree that he would get thanks about nothing. I only said he wouldn't get it for making a world that never had disease to begin with. It would be difficult to thank a god for something we never even knew could exist and never knew the god prevented.

(02-10-2014 08:24 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  In your world where you believe "Jehovah" actually exists, the proper question is "If Jehovah had never created disease in the first place, would Jehovah be more worthy of the title "God"? Consider No. "God" is still what the dictionary calls, "God". You meant to say WORSHIPPED. You choose to worship or not, you choose to love or not, hate or not. Your moral accountability for sin doesn't just include the commandments about loving God but about hate and love. Do you disagree? Let The Q give you the answer. If you disagree that you are morally accountable for love and hate because of an atheist predisposition toward determinism you have a cop out.
No, I did not mean worshiped. I would expect an omnipotent, all-loving god to eliminate all suffering by definition of such a god. Therefore, one that actually does that would be more worthy of the title "God".

As for moral accountability for love and hate, love and hate are related to emotions and states of mind. They are neither moral nor immoral. It's the actions that result from the love and hate that are moral or immoral. And yes, we are all accountable for those. I do not agree that morality requires loving a fictional being called God.

@DonaldTrump, Patriotism is not honoring your flag no matter what your country/leader does. It's doing whatever it takes to make your country the best it can be as long as its not violent.
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02-10-2014, 09:11 AM
RE: Asking for prayers?
(02-10-2014 08:41 AM)Impulse Wrote:  Thank you for finally answering some questions and for doing so without answering with more questions. Thumbsup

(02-10-2014 08:24 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Why would you need to know? Because you have set the false premise of "If God is good there would be nothing bad" and thus you wouldn't know what good is... or take the flip side of the coin, which is...? How do you know what good and bad are? What are your standards for judging?
First, to be clear, we're talking about the omnipotent, omniscient, all-loving god (or at least I am - correct me if you're not discussing the same). So then yes, if such a god existed, there would be no bad. If there was no bad, everything would be good. Therefore, there would be no need to know it's good because there would be no bad to contrast it with. And there would be nothing bad about there being no bad.

(02-10-2014 08:24 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  No, Jehovah would get no ego stroking. And your point is...? That God does lovely things all the time and does not get acknowledged or thanked. This reduces your "view" of God and confirms that you can be open or closed to God.
A perfect god has no emotional need for approval or thanks and would not care. But I disagree that he would get thanks about nothing. I only said he wouldn't get it for making a world that never had disease to begin with. It would be difficult to thank a god for something we never even knew could exist and never knew the god prevented.

(02-10-2014 08:24 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  In your world where you believe "Jehovah" actually exists, the proper question is "If Jehovah had never created disease in the first place, would Jehovah be more worthy of the title "God"? Consider No. "God" is still what the dictionary calls, "God". You meant to say WORSHIPPED. You choose to worship or not, you choose to love or not, hate or not. Your moral accountability for sin doesn't just include the commandments about loving God but about hate and love. Do you disagree? Let The Q give you the answer. If you disagree that you are morally accountable for love and hate because of an atheist predisposition toward determinism you have a cop out.
No, I did not mean worshiped. I would expect an omnipotent, all-loving god to eliminate all suffering by definition of such a god. Therefore, one that actually does that would be more worthy of the title "God".

As for moral accountability for love and hate, love and hate are related to emotions and states of mind. They are neither moral nor immoral. It's the actions that result from the love and hate that are moral or immoral. And yes, we are all accountable for those. I do not agree that morality requires loving a fictional being called God.

I can go ahead and sign off on all you wrote as long as you understand that this is not my god. My god's wrath abides upon all who reject him, forever. I'll agree with atheists that being in hell means one is not being "loved" so I don't agree with the all-loving assumption you are making. The fact that Jesus loves you and I so much he gave us all he had does not release us from the opportunity to use free will and respond (or not).

I would go more on the lines of my own experience -- that even though it was about my search for truth then heaven or hell (really, it was/is) that I realized HOLY SMACKEREL, I'D BE A BLOOMING IDIOT to send myself to hell.

To be honest with you--and I'm flexible if you want to define terms further--I've heard the "omnipotent lover" thing before from atheists AND Xians, and I don't buy it from either camp. Where is the:

justice
mercy
wrath
judgment
grace
anger
soothing
choosing
etc?

Try it this way? If god REALLY REALLY HATES SIN AND SINNERS we are right where a lot of Christians say--my disease was healed and I've sinned--he is merciful! Does that all make sense to you?

Or think about it this way, as The Q tend to? God is very powerful, very loving, very judgmental, and after his patience is thinned enough, very vengeful. If what I'm saying is correct than all unbelievers need to change their minds soon. I believe in a VERY god and not "he's three things without being anything else--omnipotent, omniscient, loving".

I apologize for my length.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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02-10-2014, 09:17 AM
RE: Asking for prayers?
(02-10-2014 08:24 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Let The Q give you the answer. If you disagree that you are morally accountable for love and hate because of an atheist predisposition toward determinism you have a cop out.

And you get yet another one wrong.

There is no "atheist predisposition toward determinism".

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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02-10-2014, 10:15 AM
RE: Asking for prayers?
Anyone see this Q guys bio and website? He is batshit bonkers! I am talking cheese slid off his cracker, portch like flikering - nobody home, fell out of the crazy tree and hit every branch on the way down looney!

“Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up, must come down, down, down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it.”
— Dan Barker —
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