Assertions
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12-09-2013, 03:17 PM
Assertions
When it comes to any god, people believing in that god make assertions about his or her abilities, properties, powers, likes, dislikes, character, if Brad Pitt would play him in the movie, etc.

To date, there is no evidence for any god that has ever been dreamed up in the imagination of mankind, but the assertions are still there. Empty and hollow, but still there.

I will assert that every moment I fall unconscious, I become a god.
In that unconscious moment, I destroy the entire universe and remake it exactly as it would have been when I awaken from my slumber. As a human being, I have no idea how I'm doing this. After all, how I can I fathom the actions of my godly self when I am completely unconscious.

When you examine your own religious beliefs or even casual scientific understandings, are you aware of the assertions that you make, if you make them ?

If you assert that a god is all knowing, wouldn't you have to be all knowing too in order to know that he knows everything ?
If I assert that Joe the Plumber knows everything there is to know about brain surgery, but yet, I've never met Joe.
Someone I trust told me that Joe is a fantastic brain surgeon, so that's good enough for me.
Don't you find something wrong with this kind of thinking ?

If you assert that a god is all powerful, how do you know this ?
Answer - you don't. All you're doing is making an assertion.

To the religious folks, can you take an honest look at what you present as truth and perhaps acknowledge that they might well simply be assertions ?

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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12-09-2013, 03:33 PM (This post was last modified: 12-09-2013 03:41 PM by Heywood Jahblome.)
RE: Assertions
(12-09-2013 03:17 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  If you assert that a god is all powerful, how do you know this ?
Answer - you don't. All you're doing is making an assertion.

If God is all powerful, then God can create a lessor being and trick that lessor being into believing it is the all powerful god. Now God knows this and in the back of His mind must be wondering, "Am I really the all powerful God or am I a lessor being created to believe I am the all powerful God?"

If God exists and claims to be all powerful....God's claim is also just an assertion. No one......no atheist, no Christian, and no god, can ever be free from assertions.
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12-09-2013, 03:45 PM
RE: Assertions
(12-09-2013 03:33 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(12-09-2013 03:17 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  If you assert that a god is all powerful, how do you know this ?
Answer - you don't. All you're doing is making an assertion.

If God is all powerful, then God can create a lessor being and trick that lessor being into believing it is the all powerful god. Now God knows this and in the back of His mind must be wondering, "Am I really the all powerful God or am I a lessor being created to believe I am the all powerful God?"

If God exists and claims to be all powerful....God's claim is also just an assertion. No one......no atheists, no Christian, and no god, can ever be free from assertions.

Interesting; that's really just a variation on an old classic: perception versus reality (so far as there is a reality, and so far as it may be perceived).

Buried within this is another implicit matter: what does it mean to be all-powerful? Does it include being all-knowing?

Only under some definitions of the terms involved could your scenario arise.

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12-09-2013, 04:55 PM (This post was last modified: 12-09-2013 05:04 PM by Mr Woof.)
RE: Assertions
(12-09-2013 03:17 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  When it comes to any god, people believing in that god make assertions about his or her abilities, properties, powers, likes, dislikes, character, if Brad Pitt would play him in the movie, etc.

To date, there is no evidence for any god that has ever been dreamed up in the imagination of mankind, but the assertions are still there. Empty and hollow, but still there.

I will assert that every moment I fall unconscious, I become a god.
In that unconscious moment, I destroy the entire universe and remake it exactly as it would have been when I awaken from my slumber. As a human being, I have no idea how I'm doing this. After all, how I can I fathom the actions of my godly self when I am completely unconscious.

When you examine your own religious beliefs or even casual scientific understandings, are you aware of the assertions that you make, if you make them ?

If you assert that a god is all knowing, wouldn't you have to be all knowing too in order to know that he knows everything ?
If I assert that Joe the Plumber knows everything there is to know about brain surgery, but yet, I've never met Joe.
Someone I trust told me that Joe is a fantastic brain surgeon, so that's good enough for me.
Don't you find something wrong with this kind of thinking ?

(Woof.Yes I do, the vast majority of religious believers will not distinguish between 'know' and 'believe'. I know that if I jump from a 20 story building my probability of dying will be extremely high, base on all available secular data.
To know of God's intent, yes, I would have to be an equal.
The [i]believer via faith can only apply within her understanding of what is morally good, and ask the very largely ineffable God, if such exists, for assistance within this limited field...............Woof.)

If you assert that a god is all powerful, how do you know this ?
Answer - you don't. All you're doing is making an assertion.

To the religious folks, can you take an honest look at what you present as truth and perhaps acknowledge that they might well simply be assertions ?
Huh:huh:Sorry! Must be dementiaNo.... Trying to answer specific paragraph, but unable to do so........AlzheimersHobo, now thats scarey!
SNIP TO SEE WHAT I WROTE....Rolleyes
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12-09-2013, 06:15 PM
RE: Assertions
I want whatever you're smoking...

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12-09-2013, 06:20 PM
RE: Assertions
(12-09-2013 03:33 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(12-09-2013 03:17 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  If you assert that a god is all powerful, how do you know this ?
Answer - you don't. All you're doing is making an assertion.

If God is all powerful, then God can create a lessor being and trick that lessor being into believing it is the all powerful god. Now God knows this and in the back of His mind must be wondering, "Am I really the all powerful God or am I a lessor being created to believe I am the all powerful God?"

If God exists and claims to be all powerful....God's claim is also just an assertion. No one......no atheist, no Christian, and no god, can ever be free from assertions.
While creative, that doesn't hold true. True omniscience means a god would know he is the true god.

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair
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12-09-2013, 06:30 PM
RE: Assertions
(12-09-2013 06:20 PM)Impulse Wrote:  
(12-09-2013 03:33 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  If God is all powerful, then God can create a lessor being and trick that lessor being into believing it is the all powerful god. Now God knows this and in the back of His mind must be wondering, "Am I really the all powerful God or am I a lessor being created to believe I am the all powerful God?"

If God exists and claims to be all powerful....God's claim is also just an assertion. No one......no atheist, no Christian, and no god, can ever be free from assertions.
While creative, that doesn't hold true. True omniscience means a god would know he is the true god.

The word was 'powerful'.

Omni potent
not
Omni scient

The 'assertion' holds if it's the former without the latter.

I know this.

For I am god.

Dodgy

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12-09-2013, 07:26 PM
RE: Assertions
(12-09-2013 06:20 PM)Impulse Wrote:  While creative, that doesn't hold true. True omniscience means a god would know he is the true god.

God cannot be both all powerful and omniscience because as the thought experiment shows, Omnipotence precludes omniscience.
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12-09-2013, 10:20 PM
RE: Assertions
Yeah, yeah, yeah, but we're all missing the most IMPORTANT question from the OP.

Forget Brad Pitt. In the movie, God should be played by Jack Nicholson.

....

...

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12-09-2013, 10:24 PM
RE: Assertions
(12-09-2013 07:26 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  God cannot be both all powerful and omniscience because as the thought experiment shows, Omnipotence precludes omniscience.

...

No it doesn't?

If an entity claims or perceives itself to be all-powerful and/or all-knowing, it may be deceived.

If it actually is, it can't be deceived.

... this is my signature!
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