Assumptions about a creator
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13-03-2017, 01:45 PM
RE: Assumptions about a creator
(13-03-2017 01:40 PM)socialistview Wrote:  Talking about the end time generation. Not them.

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Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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13-03-2017, 01:45 PM
RE: Assumptions about a creator
(13-03-2017 01:40 PM)socialistview Wrote:  Talking about the end time generation. Not them.

See? That's what I mean: believers twisting themselves in knots trying to change the meaning of words.

Happens all the time.
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13-03-2017, 01:50 PM
RE: Assumptions about a creator
The word "creator" is meaningless.

It implies things about a "being"
a. which exist in a (necessary) Reality, it didn't create yet,
b. ascribes to it qualities that it hadn't made or defined yet,
c. does not explain the Reality it found itself in.

You're welcome. Big Grin

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13-03-2017, 03:59 PM (This post was last modified: 13-03-2017 04:07 PM by Reltzik.)
RE: Assumptions about a creator
(12-03-2017 09:02 AM)socialistview Wrote:  Ok jesus is suppose to come back.

As others have mentioned, that was supposed to be in the lifetimes of some who were with him. But okay, let's ignore that.

Jesus is supposed to come back?

WHEN?

Because if we discard the "within your lifetimes" criteria, then without a specific time-frame, there's no way this claim can be falsified. It can go for a month, a year, a decade, a century, a millennium (or two)... and no amount of "Jesus hasn't come back" observation will prove it false, because the proponents can always say "we just need to wait a little longer".

This is not a falsification criteria, because nothing can ever be proven false by it.

So, let's put this question more clearly. What criteria, for the promised deliverables of Christianity which you find compelling, would prove them false? For all the things Christianity promises and that you care about, by what means would you know if the religion could not deliver on them? Because if the answer is that you could never know if it were false, then that's the perfect trap for believing in a lie.

"If I ignore the alternatives, the only option is God; I ignore them; therefore God." -- The Syllogism of Fail
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13-03-2017, 04:17 PM
Assumptions about a creator
(11-03-2017 09:19 AM)Alla Wrote:  
(11-03-2017 01:55 AM)Rachel Wrote:  At the risk of repeating myself, here is a take on this from PZ Myers:

You can’t say something is “real”, and then claim it exhibits none of the properties of any other real objects, and can’t ever be examined or analyzed empirically. That’s pretty much a good definition of “not real."

I agree with this statement because it is 100% true.
I was never convinced that creator "exhibits none of the properties of any other real objects, and can’t ever be examined or analyzed empirically".
Creator or god who "exhibits none of the properties of any other real objects, and can’t ever be examined or analyzed empirically" is creator or god that never existed, doesn't exist and will never exist. This kind of creator or god is someone's fantasy.

.


It absolutely is! The constantly moving goalposts of the alleged attributes of god are a giant clue that the believers are making this up as they go. In fact, I was given a hint that the whole thing is bushwa by the varying interpretations of the holy books as well as the varying abilities and motivations of the Judeo-Christian deity. If people actually had an objective frame of reference, they would all see the same thing. The varying interpretations are strong indicators that there is no objective frame of reference.
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13-03-2017, 04:19 PM
Assumptions about a creator
(11-03-2017 02:03 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  
(11-03-2017 01:50 AM)Rachel Wrote:  Can you give even a single example of a natural phenomenon which required a god to function?

I am.


What part of you requires a god to function? How do you know this to be a fact? Are you aware of the interaction with the supernatural? Do you have objective, empirical evidence of this physical interaction with this god and which god was it? How do you know?
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13-03-2017, 04:25 PM
Assumptions about a creator
(11-03-2017 09:42 AM)Alla Wrote:  
Rachel Wrote:Can you give an objective observation confirming that this has ever happened? Can you give even a single example of a natural phenomenon which required a god to function?
I think I can. If I am wrong, please correct me.

I will take a desert in Utah, for example. Peach tree or a rose bush can not grow in Utah's desert naturally . But someone(creators) have some goals. They need peach trees in this desert, they need rose bushes, corn, wheat and many other things in this desert. They(creators) intervene and only then there is something that would never happen naturally in the desert.


I do think you're wrong. Here's why: groundwater is abundant, even in deserts. You are taking a phenomenon which you find remarkable and extrapolating a god from it. In a sense, this is only turns argument from personal incredulity. You should do a rigorous experiment, complete with controls, to extract a god-interaction from a physical phenomenon you don't understand.

Remember that Occam's razor is not a law, but a guideline. But without empirical evidence for your god, any conclusion you reach for the supernatural must be dismissed on the lack of evidence for that supernatural entity.
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13-03-2017, 04:30 PM
RE: Assumptions about a creator
(13-03-2017 01:40 PM)socialistview Wrote:  Talking about the end time generation. Not them.

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_da...tic_events
(wiki isn't the best source, but It gets the job done in this case)

There's over 150 (I think I stopped counting after 120) end of the world predictions that have been made, many from the various groups of Christians, MOST of those dates past. The one's from the bible passed like 2,000 years ago. Despite all these religious folks divinely inspired to know the end of the world, the earth keeps spinning round the sun. There's no indication of this stopping until the Earth gets so far from the sun it spins off out of orbit, OR something like a quasar goes off, or the sun enter's a later point in its life span roasting our little rock to oblivion. In any case there's no evidence that the universe itself will ever end (except delusions of people claiming divine revelation).

There's so many possibilities yet you choose to make the claim for the one that has no reasonable basis to believe in.

Also, which generation is the end times generation? The various predictions span all generations since pretty much the founding of religions (which goes back far before Christianity in the historical record). By all biblical counts every christian has believed the world would end in their life time since it's inception, by all historical accounts Christians have thought that since the founding of their religion a few hundred years AFTER Jesus supposedly died.

Edit^ it's prolly worth noting Atheism has been around as long as religion, likely longer than religion. And so far has been the only group to get any of this right through history. Just saying.

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13-03-2017, 04:41 PM
RE: Assumptions about a creator
I stopped believing Jesus was coming back even when I was still a Christian. One con-artist after another came along declaring the end was nigh. During the cold war, when the Soviet Union dissolved, every dust-up Israel was involved in, after a while you realize that they're totally full of it.

So I've been right 100% of the time since then, none of the apocalyptic kooks have been right. Drinking Beverage

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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13-03-2017, 05:35 PM
RE: Assumptions about a creator
I go by the bible word for word. Drop your bias I'm not every christian.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews+11

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+Peter+3
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