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24-07-2014, 02:49 PM (This post was last modified: 24-07-2014 02:53 PM by Luminon.)
RE: Atheism+...
(24-07-2014 02:41 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  You know that's why sensible people actually explain themselves when giving reasoning opposed to just asserting ideas... So they don't instead make claims without giving a base to their reasoning and don't come off as one making asinine proclamations.
Right. But I can't explain everything at once. I need to know which part people need to explain. Which is why it would be very helpful if they didn't say "that's an asinine proclamation" but "I disagree with this and this part, how did you arrive at it?"
Furthermore, I am very sure about my stuff, we all see that. But I do not understand why should I suppress that feeling and act as if I am not so sure about my stuff. People should be sure about their stuff in proportion to how much did they study that particular topic. People here are very educated about natural sciences, but generally not into social sciences. Yet the enthusiasts of natural sciences act more certain of themselves even in social topics.

Still, I think my example with Kant is very fitting. Most defenses for culture today can be traced to philosophers of old. And my pet peeve at academics stems from when Kant said, argue and think all you want, but when the prince tells you to jump, you ask, "how high?" Which implies that you don't skeptically doubt why there is such a thing as a prince to begin with.

Sure it's not all Kant's fault, Socrates could totally disprove the justifications for ruling power, by what Plato wrote about him. And it would be great, because nobody can rule only by violence alone, that never lasts long. Violence rules longer than a few years because people believe that violence is right. But I think if Plato's Socrates disproved aggression as a moral option, which he could, then his writings would not be preserved to this day. They would be treated the same way that Church treated the heretics.
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28-07-2014, 09:26 AM
RE: Atheism+...
(24-07-2014 02:49 PM)Luminon Wrote:  ...
And my pet peeve at academics stems from when Kant said, argue and think all you want, but when the prince tells you to jump, you ask, "how high?" Which implies that you don't skeptically doubt why there is such a thing as a prince to begin with.
...

I don't agree with your interpretation.

Dodgy

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28-07-2014, 09:29 AM
RE: Atheism+...
(28-07-2014 09:26 AM)DLJ Wrote:  
(24-07-2014 02:49 PM)Luminon Wrote:  ...
And my pet peeve at academics stems from when Kant said, argue and think all you want, but when the prince tells you to jump, you ask, "how high?" Which implies that you don't skeptically doubt why there is such a thing as a prince to begin with.
...

I don't agree with your interpretation.

Dodgy

Why, you a prince? WHY AREN'T YOU JUMPING THEN?

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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28-07-2014, 09:56 AM
RE: Atheism+...
(28-07-2014 09:29 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(28-07-2014 09:26 AM)DLJ Wrote:  I don't agree with your interpretation.

Dodgy

Why, you a prince? WHY AREN'T YOU JUMPING THEN?

Thanks for asking and demonstrating your curiosity regarding my stance Wink

I think there is no implied lack of scepticsm when jumping.

Yes

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28-07-2014, 03:22 PM
RE: Atheism+...
(28-07-2014 09:56 AM)DLJ Wrote:  
(28-07-2014 09:29 AM)morondog Wrote:  Why, you a prince? WHY AREN'T YOU JUMPING THEN?

Thanks for asking and demonstrating your curiosity regarding my stance Wink

I think there is no implied lack of scepticsm when jumping.

Yes

You are trying to change the subject in the manner of a troll. I clearly pointed out in my last post that you were not jumping. You are trying to perform a bait and switch. You are a non sequitur. You are fallacious. I didn't ask about your stance, I asked about your non-stance. Namely you were not adopting the stance of jumping. That is a criminal offence unless you are a prince.

However I am a reasonable man. You may not have been deliberately trolling. I will extend to your nauseating self the benefit of the doubt. Use it well. I find it goes well with cheese. May you always come out smelling of roses.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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28-07-2014, 03:53 PM
RE: Atheism+...
(24-07-2014 12:46 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(24-07-2014 12:25 PM)Luminon Wrote:  philosophy is a poisoned well for the last 1000 years or so, due to academics and government ideologies.

Blink Jassus, you just can't get away from the government can you? 1000 years of philosophy well poisoning, in collusion with the filthy academics! No wonder us plebs don't stand a chance... My brothers (and sisters) (and persons of indeterminate gender who are a sibling relation but for whom we do not have a plural noun due quite possibly to government meddling during the formative phases of the English language), we must stand firm against this threat! Don't believe anything anyone says ever! Except me, of course. Otherwise it becomes a circular... thing. And that's just silly. Drinking Beverage

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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29-07-2014, 02:11 AM
RE: Atheism+...
(28-07-2014 09:26 AM)DLJ Wrote:  I don't agree with your interpretation.

Dodgy
Uhm, that is not an argument. Unsure Arguments tend to have "because" in them and some "cause" or some "why". These are the interesting parts to which people generally respond.

(28-07-2014 09:56 AM)DLJ Wrote:  Thanks for asking and demonstrating your curiosity regarding my stance Wink

I think there is no implied lack of scepticsm when jumping.

Yes

Yep, there may be the instinct of self-preservation. But you know what drives me crazy about you? Still no argument in there. You say what you don't think, not why. Facepalm There is this thing called communication, you might want to look it up Wink
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29-07-2014, 04:48 AM
RE: Atheism+...
(29-07-2014 02:11 AM)Luminon Wrote:  
(28-07-2014 09:26 AM)DLJ Wrote:  I don't agree with your interpretation.

Dodgy
Uhm, that is not an argument. Unsure Arguments tend to have "because" in them and some "cause" or some "why". These are the interesting parts to which people generally respond.

Why does that sound familiar? Ah yes:

(24-07-2014 02:08 PM)Luminon Wrote:  ...
It would be nice if people were curious how did I arrive at my stances, because it wasn't out of nowhere
...
(24-07-2014 02:41 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  ...
You know that's why sensible people actually explain themselves when giving reasoning opposed to just asserting ideas.
...


(29-07-2014 02:11 AM)Luminon Wrote:  
(28-07-2014 09:56 AM)DLJ Wrote:  Thanks for asking and demonstrating your curiosity regarding my stance Wink

I think there is no implied lack of scepticsm when jumping.

Yes

Yep, there may be the instinct of self-preservation. But you know what drives me crazy about you? Still no argument in there. You say what you don't think, not why. Facepalm There is this thing called communication, you might want to look it up Wink

Yeah, but I'm good at irony, right?

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31-08-2014, 05:24 PM
RE: Atheism+...
(22-07-2014 07:57 AM)CiderThinker Wrote:  So as I delve more and more into the atheist community I keep seeing this little + symbol coming up...

Is it just me - as something of a noob - or is this whole Atheism 'plus' idea a little misguided. Adding to the definition of atheism seems to be both deliberately divisive and to miss the point of free-thought in the first place.

The incessant arguments over feminism amongst YT atheists at the minute is a particularly good example and is leaving me with nothing but headaches from all the facepalming...

Rant over.

The other problem with this little group is that they are very pro-censorship. Trust me, you are not a noob.
The reason it is dangerous is that in debates, theists will often refer to atheism as a "worldview" when it is a single position on a single issue. This is a short-sighted action that perpetuates that myth.
The arguments about feminism are annoying to me too. I think the problem is not that feminists strive for gender equality or not, and whether if you consider equality the best you are or aren't a feminist, but that feminism requires the position that women are more disadvantaged in society. The arguments are then whether sexism is a problem that affects women more.
Personally, I don't. That's why I consider myself an egalitarian.
One of the main problems though, is that most atheists are critical of the right, and are therefore socially left. Feminism is associated with social left-ness, and so it is automatically considered a right-wing view to oppose feminism, calling anti feminist leftists hippocrites for opposing them. I say there are many forms of progressiveness, and opposing one progressive position doesn't make you conservative.
My real position is that atheism should stay "lack of belief in god" that anything else is political ideas and ideologies that are independant of atheism, and that if you are censoring freedom of speech in your corner of the internet, you don't have much confidence in your positions.

If somebody points out a fallacy, and you call fallacy fallacy, that doesn't mean you are right. That just means you committed the very fallacy you accused your opponent of.
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31-08-2014, 11:18 PM
RE: Atheism+...
(31-08-2014 05:24 PM)spinosauruskin Wrote:  The arguments about feminism are annoying to me too. I think the problem is not that feminists strive for gender equality or not, and whether if you consider equality the best you are or aren't a feminist, but that feminism requires the position that women are more disadvantaged in society. The arguments are then whether sexism is a problem that affects women more.

Uh... since there is *data*... y'know, like the salary data Cjlr posted...

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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