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01-09-2014, 12:12 AM
RE: Atheism+...
(31-08-2014 05:24 PM)spinosauruskin Wrote:  
(22-07-2014 07:57 AM)CiderThinker Wrote:  So as I delve more and more into the atheist community I keep seeing this little + symbol coming up...

Is it just me - as something of a noob - or is this whole Atheism 'plus' idea a little misguided. Adding to the definition of atheism seems to be both deliberately divisive and to miss the point of free-thought in the first place.

The incessant arguments over feminism amongst YT atheists at the minute is a particularly good example and is leaving me with nothing but headaches from all the facepalming...

Rant over.

The other problem with this little group is that they are very pro-censorship. Trust me, you are not a noob.
The reason it is dangerous is that in debates, theists will often refer to atheism as a "worldview" when it is a single position on a single issue. This is a short-sighted action that perpetuates that myth.
The arguments about feminism are annoying to me too. I think the problem is not that feminists strive for gender equality or not, and whether if you consider equality the best you are or aren't a feminist, but that feminism requires the position that women are more disadvantaged in society. The arguments are then whether sexism is a problem that affects women more.
Personally, I don't. That's why I consider myself an egalitarian.
One of the main problems though, is that most atheists are critical of the right, and are therefore socially left. Feminism is associated with social left-ness, and so it is automatically considered a right-wing view to oppose feminism, calling anti feminist leftists hippocrites for opposing them. I say there are many forms of progressiveness, and opposing one progressive position doesn't make you conservative.
My real position is that atheism should stay "lack of belief in god" that anything else is political ideas and ideologies that are independant of atheism, and that if you are censoring freedom of speech in your corner of the internet, you don't have much confidence in your positions.

I'm so tired of hearing this. Who give a shit what you call it, talk about the issues. If you believe in the wage gap but you don't want to call in feminism I don't think anybody really gives a damn.

As a self identified feminist, I take issue with people who deny the facts; I also believe in equal rights for minorities and take issue with people who don't believe in racism. "Humanist", "feminist", "egalitarian", it is such the most useless, petty semantic squabble. The issues... talk about the issues. Enough with the labeling.

As to the atheist + thing... I wish they would come up with a better and more descriptive term. Atheist could just as easily be replaced with secularist and would be more accurate besides. The issues really matter though - I don't care what they call themselves, I care much more about their ideas.
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01-09-2014, 12:41 AM
RE: Atheism+...
(01-09-2014 12:12 AM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  The issues really matter though - I don't care what they call themselves, I care much more about their ideas.
Their ideas? Like equating asking someone out for coffee with sexual harassment? Puhleeeeaseeeeee...
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08-09-2014, 10:46 AM
RE: Atheism+...
(01-09-2014 12:12 AM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  I'm so tired of hearing this. Who give a shit what you call it, talk about the issues. If you believe in the wage gap but you don't want to call in feminism I don't think anybody really gives a damn.

As for the wage gap, I think it is a lot more complicated than "patriarchy" and I am sure you agree.
Maybe there is a hint of sexism, but surely businesses can just be investigated legally. I know that the US has an equal pay law, and so does the UK.

(01-09-2014 12:12 AM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  As a self identified feminist, I take issue with people who deny the facts; I also believe in equal rights for minorities and take issue with people who don't believe in racism. "Humanist", "feminist", "egalitarian", it is such the most useless, petty semantic squabble. The issues... talk about the issues. Enough with the labeling.

Well a Christian could say "I hate people who don't believe in god, it's like not believing in racism." What would you say? Prove it exists.
Labels are a necessary evil of human communication. You can't just say "get rid of labels" as then how do you refer to one another? Do you have to explain your highly nuanced, complicated view on hundreds of issues or just say "I'm a liberal?"
When it comes to labels between feminist, MRA and egalitarian, I think they are necessary. It is all about who you think has it worse. I would contend that there doesn't need to be a gender-specific movement in western nations. I am not denying sexism, but denying that it significantly affects one gender more than another.

(01-09-2014 12:12 AM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  As to the atheist + thing... I wish they would come up with a better and more descriptive term.

How about Dogmatic, Insular, Authoritatian Feminists?

(01-09-2014 12:12 AM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  Atheist could just as easily be replaced with secularist and would be more accurate.

No. Again, the reason is that atheist and secularist have definitive meanings and shouldn't be given any baggage. Why? Propaganda. Did you see the Ken Ham/Bill Nye debate? Did you see how Ken kept using the word "secularists" to group those who agreed with evolution and misconstrue them as all atheists? That is the kind of propaganda that hold cults together. The same way radfem groups generally label all dissenters as MRAs.

(01-09-2014 12:12 AM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  besides. The issues really matter though - I don't care what they call themselves, I care much more about their ideas.

Fair enough. Down and dirty with the actual issues. I can respect that, even if we are on opposing sides of issues.

If somebody points out a fallacy, and you call fallacy fallacy, that doesn't mean you are right. That just means you committed the very fallacy you accused your opponent of.
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08-09-2014, 06:12 PM
RE: Atheism+...
(01-09-2014 12:12 AM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  
(31-08-2014 05:24 PM)spinosauruskin Wrote:  The other problem with this little group is that they are very pro-censorship. Trust me, you are not a noob.
The reason it is dangerous is that in debates, theists will often refer to atheism as a "worldview" when it is a single position on a single issue. This is a short-sighted action that perpetuates that myth.
The arguments about feminism are annoying to me too. I think the problem is not that feminists strive for gender equality or not, and whether if you consider equality the best you are or aren't a feminist, but that feminism requires the position that women are more disadvantaged in society. The arguments are then whether sexism is a problem that affects women more.
Personally, I don't. That's why I consider myself an egalitarian.
One of the main problems though, is that most atheists are critical of the right, and are therefore socially left. Feminism is associated with social left-ness, and so it is automatically considered a right-wing view to oppose feminism, calling anti feminist leftists hippocrites for opposing them. I say there are many forms of progressiveness, and opposing one progressive position doesn't make you conservative.
My real position is that atheism should stay "lack of belief in god" that anything else is political ideas and ideologies that are independant of atheism, and that if you are censoring freedom of speech in your corner of the internet, you don't have much confidence in your positions.

I'm so tired of hearing this. Who give a shit what you call it, talk about the issues. If you believe in the wage gap but you don't want to call in feminism I don't think anybody really gives a damn.

As a self identified feminist, I take issue with people who deny the facts; I also believe in equal rights for minorities and take issue with people who don't believe in racism. "Humanist", "feminist", "egalitarian", it is such the most useless, petty semantic squabble. The issues... talk about the issues. Enough with the labeling.

As to the atheist + thing... I wish they would come up with a better and more descriptive term. Atheist could just as easily be replaced with secularist and would be more accurate besides. The issues really matter though - I don't care what they call themselves, I care much more about their ideas.

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08-09-2014, 07:48 PM
RE: Atheism+...
(08-09-2014 06:12 PM)Res Publica Wrote:  
(01-09-2014 12:12 AM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  I'm so tired of hearing this. Who give a shit what you call it, talk about the issues. If you believe in the wage gap but you don't want to call in feminism I don't think anybody really gives a damn.

As a self identified feminist, I take issue with people who deny the facts; I also believe in equal rights for minorities and take issue with people who don't believe in racism. "Humanist", "feminist", "egalitarian", it is such the most useless, petty semantic squabble. The issues... talk about the issues. Enough with the labeling.

As to the atheist + thing... I wish they would come up with a better and more descriptive term. Atheist could just as easily be replaced with secularist and would be more accurate besides. The issues really matter though - I don't care what they call themselves, I care much more about their ideas.

Freudian Slip

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08-09-2014, 10:01 PM
RE: Atheism+...
(01-09-2014 12:41 AM)DunkleSeele Wrote:  
(01-09-2014 12:12 AM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  The issues really matter though - I don't care what they call themselves, I care much more about their ideas.
Their ideas? Like equating asking someone out for coffee with sexual harassment? Puhleeeeaseeeeee...

He asked her to coffee in his hotel room at 2 am...not really asking out for coffee.

However I agree she overreacted to that.
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10-09-2014, 07:37 PM
RE: Atheism+...
I watched Rebecca's video on the topic today for the first time because I started to think I was missing something important, not having done so yet... If that was all that there was to this, I don't understand what all the fuss is about. She didn't say anything wrong or controversial. The guy was hitting at her in a creepy way and she was just saying it made her feel uncomfortable. It would have made me feel uncomfortable as well!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKHwduG1Frk
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10-09-2014, 08:18 PM
Re: RE: Atheism+...
(10-09-2014 07:37 PM)Joh Wrote:  I watched Rebecca's video on the topic today for the first time because I started to think I was missing something important, not having done so yet... If that was all that there was to this, I don't understand what all the fuss is about. She didn't say anything wrong or controversial. The guy was hitting at her in a creepy way and she was just saying it made her feel uncomfortable. It would have made me feel uncomfortable as well!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKHwduG1Frk

I think to really get at what blew up as controversial comes from blogs and comment sections backlashing and spiraling into madness.

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11-09-2014, 02:39 AM
RE: Atheism+...
(08-09-2014 10:01 PM)Hobbitgirl Wrote:  
(01-09-2014 12:41 AM)DunkleSeele Wrote:  Their ideas? Like equating asking someone out for coffee with sexual harassment? Puhleeeeaseeeeee...

He asked her to coffee in his hotel room at 2 am...not really asking out for coffee.
Fair enough, point taken. Still, I don't see it as sexual harassment.
Quote:However I agree she overreacted to that.
I don't even have a problem with her overreacting. She has the right to feel annoyed at someone hitting at her, although her reaction was clearly exaggerated.
My real problem is with the pack mentality of the Atheism+ folks, who started screaming "Sexual harassment!" left, right and center and basically turning themselves into a lynching mob, all the while trivialising the pain and suffering of all the victims of real sexual harassment.
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11-09-2014, 03:14 AM
RE: Atheism+...
(08-09-2014 10:01 PM)Hobbitgirl Wrote:  He asked her to coffee in his hotel room at 2 am...not really asking out for coffee.

Well, I don't think there would be a nearby coffee place open that early in the morning. Maybe he had a really good brew that was shit out by some Brazilian cats or something?

In all seriousness, the man did commit a social faux pas by getting on the elevator with her. Alone. At night. On the other hand, nothing came of it. She said no and he left. That should have been an ending to that poopy story.

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