Atheism - A clearer understanding
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04-11-2012, 02:15 PM
RE: Atheism - A clearer understanding
(04-11-2012 01:39 PM)DLJ Wrote:  
(04-11-2012 01:08 PM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  Here's my very simple definition of Atheism - The theory or belief that God does not exist.

If that is what you decided after reading the responses, I'm afraid that you missed the point.

(04-11-2012 01:08 PM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  So far what I'm gathering is that some of you believe there are "passive" and "positive" Atheists. The passive ones just don't have an opinion on the matter, yet somehow, when confronted with the question, respond that they don't believe in the existence of God (passive).

"Don't believe" is active. Go back to Phaedrus' post#6 and re-read.
Passive = absence of belief

Given this tiny error, you will then see that the conclusions you have drawn in the rest of your post are also, erroneous.

Keep trying though, I feel you might be on the verge of a breakthrough.

Yes
Here is what you're saying - There is a difference between "lack of belief" and "disbelief"

I agree with that, but if you're implying that both are considered Atheists, I disagree. The person that has a "lack of belief" is what could be called "uncategorized". They have not established a view on whether anything exists that could have been the cause of the Universes existence.
If someone believes that the Theory is that the Universe does not have a supernatural cause, then they have an "Atheistic" view - and we can then establish that person as an Atheist whether they have pronounced that or not.
The reason I say that is because the Theory that the Universe was created by God is actually an actual Theory. It's not something that is never considered as plausible.
Since it is an established Theory, and so is the "God Particle", then rejecting the Theory of God would land you into the category of Atheist. Your still a normal human being, your views on that issue are just categorized under "Atheist".

I'm pretty sure I'm not on the verge of a breakthrough. This change of emotion towards the idea of Atheism has been something to grab my attention for some time now. At first I thought it was just young people trying to create their own fashion statement. After a while, I understood that it was an abstract response to an argument on world views as a defense.
Never before would this defining title be an issue in the terms actual establishment for the sake of argument.
I think we just need to understand each other.

So far, I'm getting that I need to call someone that doesn't have an opinion - Atheist.

“What you believe to be true will control you, whether it’s true or not.”

—Jeremy LaBorde
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04-11-2012, 02:24 PM
RE: Atheism - A clearer understanding
You seem to have a severe lack of precision in your thinking; that is, you blend concepts and take similar ideas and equate them. It's sloppy reasoning and leads to false conclusions, and is also rather irritating since it leads to a continual string of strawman arguments. We'll fix that.




There's a difference between a lack of an opinion and a lack of a belief. The former are apatheists. The latter are atheists.


Atheist - "I see no reason to believe in deities."
Strong Atheist - "I do not believe that deities exist and think the idea is silly."
Agnostic - "I don't know if there's a god or not, I see evidence on both sides."
Apatheist - "I don't have an opinion and don't really care."

E 2 = (mc 2)2 + (pc )2
614C → 714N + e + ̅νe
2 K(s) + 2 H2O(l) → 2 KOH(aq) + H2 (g) + 196 kJ/mol
It works, bitches.
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04-11-2012, 02:28 PM
RE: Atheism - A clearer understanding
(04-11-2012 02:24 PM)Phaedrus Wrote:  You seem to have a severe lack of precision in your thinking; that is, you blend concepts and take similar ideas and equate them. It's sloppy reasoning and leads to false conclusions, and is also rather irritating since it leads to a continual string of strawman arguments. We'll fix that.




There's a difference between a lack of an opinion and a lack of a belief. The former are apatheists. The latter are atheists.


Atheist - "I see no reason to believe in deities."
Strong Atheist - "I do not believe that deities exist and think the idea is silly."
Agnostic - "I don't know if there's a god or not, I see evidence on both sides."
Apatheist - "I don't have an opinion and don't really care."
This is precisely what I'm interested in!
The actual terms in order to identify subjects.
I had never heard of Apatheism, and that is exactly what I was going for. Ack! I'm so bad at communication XDD

EDIT:
So I looked up Apatheism and it is apparently known as "Pragmatic Atheism". Perfect!
So now I'm curious as to who identifies them self under this term?

“What you believe to be true will control you, whether it’s true or not.”

—Jeremy LaBorde
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04-11-2012, 02:36 PM (This post was last modified: 04-11-2012 02:50 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Atheism - A clearer understanding

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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04-11-2012, 02:40 PM
RE: Atheism - A clearer understanding
(04-11-2012 02:36 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(04-11-2012 02:28 PM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  
(04-11-2012 02:24 PM)Phaedrus Wrote:  Atheist - "I see no reason to believe in deities."
Strong Atheist - "I do not believe that deities exist and think the idea is silly."
Agnostic - "I don't know if there's a god or not, I see evidence on both sides."
Apatheist - "I don't have an opinion and don't really care."

Igtheist - "There is no coherent definition of godery-don't-bother-me-until-there-is-one-my-puppy-wants-to-go-surfing-ism.
If you hear of one email me-ism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignosticism

"So now I'm curious as to who identifies them self under this term?

Me
nice

“What you believe to be true will control you, whether it’s true or not.”

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04-11-2012, 02:42 PM (This post was last modified: 04-11-2012 04:15 PM by DLJ.)
RE: Atheism - A clearer understanding
(04-11-2012 02:15 PM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  [
Here is what you're saying - There is a difference between "lack of belief" and "disbelief"

I agree with that, but if you're implying that both are considered Atheists, I disagree. The person that has a "lack of belief" is what could be called "uncategorized". They have not established a view on whether anything exists that could have been the cause of the Universes existence.
If someone believes that the Theory is that the Universe does not have a supernatural cause, then they have an "Atheistic" view - and we can then establish that person as an Atheist whether they have pronounced that or not.
The reason I say that is because the Theory that the Universe was created by God is actually an actual Theory. It's not something that is never considered as plausible.
Since it is an established Theory, and so is the "God Particle", then rejecting the Theory of God would land you into the category of Atheist. Your still a normal human being, your views on that issue are just categorized under "Atheist".

I'm pretty sure I'm not on the verge of a breakthrough. This change of emotion towards the idea of Atheism has been something to grab my attention for some time now. At first I thought it was just young people trying to create their own fashion statement. After a while, I understood that it was an abstract response to an argument on world views as a defense.
Never before would this defining title be an issue in the terms actual establishment for the sake of argument.
I think we just need to understand each other.

So far, I'm getting that I need to call someone that doesn't have an opinion - Atheist.

Hmmm. Ok. Not on the verge maybe, but on the right path, perhaps.

I can understand why you feel the need to categorise and define but I'm afraid you need to try to shed this need and think out of the box a bit.
When I first joined TTA, I knew nothing of the myriad of theistic denominations they have in the USA. I recall KC asking someone if the were YEC, OEC etc. and I had to google muchly. The need to categorise is not exclusively theistic, we are pattern-recognising apes after all but I think a typical atheist (if there is such a thing) might be more inclined to accept blurry rather than fixed categories. Maybe I'm speaking for myself, I dunno.

So please have a think about shedding the idea of "Atheist" with a capital "A" and the idea that there is an atheistic worldview. I have only ever heard this coming from theists (presumably in their need for a definition to argue against) not from atheists.

Also the idea of "not caring" is not quite right. An atheist might merrily and care-fully argue against a particularly definition / category of god(s) but usually recognises that there are so many varieties of god(s) and god theories that the argument is really about something else.

Kim describes this beautifully in post #20.

If you meet an atheist and wish to debate / discuss / chat, it would be best to ask about their personal take on the subject rather than assuming a worldview as I hope an atheist would do when debating a theist.

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04-11-2012, 02:46 PM
RE: Atheism - A clearer understanding
There are many gray areas which fall under the umbrella of atheism.
There is the ignostic who states the concept of god is inconsequential so that if evidence or lack thereof were realized, it would still be irrelevant to existence.
Meaning:
Intense person --> Shy - "Hey, someone wrote a book, formed a club, and made a movie about this thing."
Ignostic person --> Smile - "Ok, wanna beer?"

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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04-11-2012, 03:00 PM
RE: Atheism - A clearer understanding
(04-11-2012 02:42 PM)DLJ Wrote:  I can understand why you feel the need to categorize and define but I'm afraid you need to try to shed this need and think out of the box a bit.

Interesting behavior that. Consider
Is that Boxism ?
I'm an a-boxist myself.
Unless It's a box with a red bow. I do believe strongly in silver boxes with red bows that say "Tiffany's" on the top.
I'm a VERY devout boxist, in that case.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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04-11-2012, 03:02 PM
RE: Atheism - A clearer understanding
(04-11-2012 03:00 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(04-11-2012 02:42 PM)DLJ Wrote:  I can understand why you feel the need to categorize and define but I'm afraid you need to try to shed this need and think out of the box a bit.

Interesting behavior that. Consider
Is that Boxism ?
I'm an a-boxist myself.
Unless It's a box with a red bow. I do believe strongly in silver boxes with red bows that say "Tiffany's" on the top.
I'm a VERY devout boxist, in that case.
Sometimes I wonder if meeting some of you in person would make me feel like a more normal individual..

“What you believe to be true will control you, whether it’s true or not.”

—Jeremy LaBorde
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04-11-2012, 03:06 PM
RE: Atheism - A clearer understanding
(04-11-2012 03:02 PM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  
(04-11-2012 03:00 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Interesting behavior that. Consider
Is that Boxism ?
I'm an a-boxist myself.
Unless It's a box with a red bow. I do believe strongly in silver boxes with red bows that say "Tiffany's" on the top.
I'm a VERY devout boxist, in that case.
Sometimes I wonder if meeting some of you in person would make me feel like a more normal individual..
I have met you in a sense.
Ever since I saw you asking that question of Habermas, and being shocked in getting his bullshit answer, I feel I know you better.
I see you as honestly on a journey. I think you're cool.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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