Atheism: Ignorance on "the old and new covenant"
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23-11-2015, 08:51 AM
Atheism: Ignorance on "the old and new covenant"
Not saying this to be insulting. But, i usually hear on the internet. Usually from atheists saying "Wow can you believe what the old testament says?" usually with the

"Marrying daughter who is virgin when raped and have to pay 30 sekels or something to father"

"Mauling children, bear does it because kids called a guy baldy"

"Drowning people for not doing what god wants them to do"

If there is stuff i haven't mentioned that you don't like then feel free to add them too.
But basically. The thing is Jesus is the new covenant that Christians follow. Does this makes the old covenant invalid, nope. Absolutely not. But here is the keyrole. If you want to keep the jewish laws "Basically you become jew" then you have to obey every law. Jesus is what christians follow, and that you pray and believe in him. Which is the symbolic idea of crucifixion. Is that in the book of moses, usually called with 5 different names like exoddus, leviticus etc. It is talking about how to please Yahweh your god. And that is usually animal sacrifices, the blood was symbolic in that case as it cleansed sin, atleast from what i remember from reading about it. So the idea that Jesus is the ultimate sacrifice so that anyone who follows him will go to heaven. Is the ideal. You may think "Where does Jesus say that"

Its hinted lots of times.
Jesus says his sins will be a ransom for many. (Which leads to the ultimate sacrifice)
Mark 10:45

And here Jesus says he is god. Ok, this doesnt make any sense by itself... but
Mark 14:62

If you add Daniel in context to what he says
Daniel 7:13-14
Then he clearly says he is.

So Paul wasn't just fooling around. He knew exactly what Jesus was talking about.

Now ok then. I got the theology. Atheists will say God is evil in the old. And they may think so. But if we lets say "morale is subjective" then wouldn't that mean that i can say "Well i think cheating on my wife is morale?" i mean the reason why god is so wrathful and angry in the old is to give a theological point. He hates what we do. And thats why he does the thing he does. Like cursing is not something god likes. Marrying someone and keep the law is more or less a punishment if you think about it. But the idea is to obey god and keep his laws. Now Jesus was sent so that all could have his grace and be saved by faith, and not by condemnation.

Well i have probably not covered all. But i hope this gives a little insight into the religion

What i think is that god knows the best for us. And that's why i struggle to try and be good that way.

Well... i am sorry if i sounded too preachy. I am looking forward to hearing your answers ^^
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23-11-2015, 10:19 AM (This post was last modified: 23-11-2015 10:23 AM by DLJ.)
RE: Atheism: Ignorance on "the old and new covenant"
(23-11-2015 08:51 AM)Keiya Wrote:  ...
So Paul wasn't just fooling around. He knew exactly what Jesus was talking about.
...

Absolutely.

Just as Tolkien knew exactly what Gandalf was talking about.

Wink

Time to bring out an old favourite:

"Because...
< Insert baseless assertion here >
< Insert nonsensical non sequitur here >
< insert bible quote here >
God loves you and is sending you to hell."

Thumbsup

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23-11-2015, 10:23 AM (This post was last modified: 23-11-2015 10:30 AM by Keiya.)
RE: Atheism: Ignorance on "the old and new covenant"
(23-11-2015 10:19 AM)DLJ Wrote:  
(23-11-2015 08:51 AM)Keiya Wrote:  ...
So Paul wasn't just fooling around. He knew exactly what Jesus was talking about.
...

Absolutely.

Just as Tolkien knew exactly what Gandalf was talking about.

Wink

Haha XD

The thing is in Galatians 2 letter he states that he went to the apostles to check if his gospel were correct, and it was confirmed. Galatians is btw authentic letters from paul. And besides. If lets say he made stuff up, i am sure the christian community would have responded, the only clue is the ebionites. But if we take historical context, according to history they started to show up after the siege of Jerusalem in 70 AD "Ebionites were christian jews", so its more sign of desperation to say the least. If there were plenty of christians calling Paul a liar at the time, then i'd said it would conclude better. His first letter i believe date back to about 50 AD which is 20 years after Jesus death. And historians accept Jesus' baptism by john the baptist and Jesus' crucifixion as historical facts.

As for hell. I believe its because of love, although some may think its not right. But the idea is "Lord" means to have someone above you. In this case it is god, he hates what we do. And what we consider good may not be good at all. Thats why i think objective morality is good in this case. Because it also makes you want to struggle to be good. And thats the idea that hell is for people who don't want to accept god's gift in that. Or to follow his teachings.
Which is why you see god pretty wrathful in the old testament, he don't want us to go our ways, but to stay pure to his way so that we wont sway of the right path. Which may be why Psalm 23 is so popular ^^.

I am fan of Lord of the rings too Big Grin
Read the hobbit and silmarillion. J.R.R tolkien is an amazing author.
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23-11-2015, 10:34 AM
RE: Atheism: Ignorance on "the old and new covenant"
(23-11-2015 10:23 AM)Keiya Wrote:  ...
in Galatians 2
...

No! No! Don't tell me!

I haven't seen Galatians 1 yet.

Angel

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23-11-2015, 10:37 AM
RE: Atheism: Ignorance on "the old and new covenant"
God is a monster in both testaments.
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23-11-2015, 10:39 AM
RE: Atheism: Ignorance on "the old and new covenant"
(23-11-2015 08:51 AM)Keiya Wrote:  Not saying this to be insulting. But, i usually hear on the internet. Usually from atheists saying "Wow can you believe what the old testament says?" usually with the

"Marrying daughter who is virgin when raped and have to pay 30 sekels or something to father"

"Mauling children, bear does it because kids called a guy baldy"

"Drowning people for not doing what god wants them to do"

If there is stuff i haven't mentioned that you don't like then feel free to add them too.
But basically. The thing is Jesus is the new covenant that Christians follow. Does this makes the old covenant invalid, nope. Absolutely not. But here is the keyrole. If you want to keep the jewish laws "Basically you become jew" then you have to obey every law. Jesus is what christians follow, and that you pray and believe in him. Which is the symbolic idea of crucifixion. Is that in the book of moses, usually called with 5 different names like exoddus, leviticus etc. It is talking about how to please Yahweh your god. And that is usually animal sacrifices, the blood was symbolic in that case as it cleansed sin, atleast from what i remember from reading about it. So the idea that Jesus is the ultimate sacrifice so that anyone who follows him will go to heaven. Is the ideal. You may think "Where does Jesus say that"

Its hinted lots of times.
Jesus says his sins will be a ransom for many. (Which leads to the ultimate sacrifice)
Mark 10:45

And here Jesus says he is god. Ok, this doesnt make any sense by itself... but
Mark 14:62

If you add Daniel in context to what he says
Daniel 7:13-14
Then he clearly says he is.

So Paul wasn't just fooling around. He knew exactly what Jesus was talking about.

Now ok then. I got the theology. Atheists will say God is evil in the old. And they may think so. But if we lets say "morale is subjective" then wouldn't that mean that i can say "Well i think cheating on my wife is morale?" i mean the reason why god is so wrathful and angry in the old is to give a theological point. He hates what we do. And thats why he does the thing he does. Like cursing is not something god likes. Marrying someone and keep the law is more or less a punishment if you think about it. But the idea is to obey god and keep his laws. Now Jesus was sent so that all could have his grace and be saved by faith, and not by condemnation.

Well i have probably not covered all. But i hope this gives a little insight into the religion

What i think is that god knows the best for us. And that's why i struggle to try and be good that way.

Well... i am sorry if i sounded too preachy. I am looking forward to hearing your answers ^^

Really. God knows what's best for us ?
Like it's "best for us" that MILLIONS of innocent babies starved this year ?
Are you on drugs ?

And you totally wrong about the Covenants. There was only one.
Genesis 9:12 "And God said, “This is the sign of the covenant I am making between me and you and every living creature with you, a covenant for all generations to come.

Now either your god is a damn liar, or he isn't.

Jesus does not agree with you, and neither does St. Paul.

Matthew 5:17-18
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished."

Earth has not "disappeared", as far as I can see.

Not only is the law still in place, but you as a woman need to be quiet.
1 Corinthians 14:34
"Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says."

He says nothing about a "new law". He says the law in still in place.

Have a nice (quiet) day.

Tongue

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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23-11-2015, 10:40 AM
RE: Atheism: Ignorance on "the old and new covenant"
I get that God hates what we do and was trying to prove a point in the OT. That makes sense if God was a tyrant. But you can't be a tyrant and then call yourself "just" and "loving." If God loved his creation, he would never do all the evil things he did to the biblical people for disobeying (rape/smiting/stoning/starvation/disease/curses/etc.). Think about how you would feel if it was a person doing those things. What would you think of that person? Think about how you would discipline your child for disobeying? Would you ever even consider doing what God did to them?

God wasn't always filled with wrath in the OT. Sometimes God did shitty things just to see how much people loved him (Abraham and his son/Job).
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23-11-2015, 10:44 AM (This post was last modified: 23-11-2015 10:48 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Atheism: Ignorance on "the old and new covenant"
(23-11-2015 10:23 AM)Keiya Wrote:  
(23-11-2015 10:19 AM)DLJ Wrote:  Absolutely.

Just as Tolkien knew exactly what Gandalf was talking about.

Wink

Haha XD

The thing is in Galatians 2 letter he states that he went to the apostles to check if his gospel were correct, and it was confirmed. Galatians is btw authentic letters from paul. And besides. If lets say he made stuff up, i am sure the christian community would have responded, the only clue is the ebionites. But if we take historical context, according to history they started to show up after the siege of Jerusalem in 70 AD "Ebionites were christian jews", so its more sign of desperation to say the least. If there were plenty of christians calling Paul a liar at the time, then i'd said it would conclude better. His first letter i believe date back to about 50 AD which is 20 years after Jesus death. And historians accept Jesus' baptism by john the baptist and Jesus' crucifixion as historical facts.

As for hell. I believe its because of love, although some may think its not right. But the idea is "Lord" means to have someone above you. In this case it is god, he hates what we do. And what we consider good may not be good at all. Thats why i think objective morality is good in this case. Because it also makes you want to struggle to be good. And thats the idea that hell is for people who don't want to accept god's gift in that. Or to follow his teachings.
Which is why you see god pretty wrathful in the old testament, he don't want us to go our ways, but to stay pure to his way so that we wont sway of the right path. Which may be why Psalm 23 is so popular ^^.

I am fan of Lord of the rings too Big Grin
Read the hobbit and silmarillion. J.R.R tolkien is an amazing author.

The "Christian community" would have had NO WAY to *check* on anything. Paul said he got "his gospel" from no man. He made it all up. He is the founder of your cult.
There is no "objective morality" If there were, it would not have changed so radically, and parents who were advised to kill their disobedient children in the oT could still do so. Morality that CHANGES is not "objective". Nice try. Fail.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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23-11-2015, 10:48 AM
RE: Atheism: Ignorance on "the old and new covenant"
My atheism stems from seeing no evidence of any god/deity/ghost/goblin/loch ness monster etc.

It has nothing to do with the contradictions and inaccuracies of any of the holy books they use. Drinking Beverage

" Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous."
David Hume
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23-11-2015, 10:49 AM
RE: Atheism: Ignorance on "the old and new covenant"
(23-11-2015 10:23 AM)Keiya Wrote:  
(23-11-2015 10:19 AM)DLJ Wrote:  Absolutely.

Just as Tolkien knew exactly what Gandalf was talking about.

Wink

Haha XD

The thing is in Galatians 2 letter he states that he went to the apostles to check if his gospel were correct, and it was confirmed. Galatians is btw authentic letters from paul. And besides. If lets say he made stuff up, i am sure the christian community would have responded, the only clue is the ebionites. But if we take historical context, according to history they started to show up after the siege of Jerusalem in 70 AD "Ebionites were christian jews", so its more sign of desperation to say the least. If there were plenty of christians calling Paul a liar at the time, then i'd said it would conclude better. His first letter i believe date back to about 50 AD which is 20 years after Jesus death. And historians accept Jesus' baptism by john the baptist and Jesus' crucifixion as historical facts.

As for hell. I believe its because of love, although some may think its not right. But the idea is "Lord" means to have someone above you. In this case it is god, he hates what we do. And what we consider good may not be good at all. Thats why i think objective morality is good in this case. Because it also makes you want to struggle to be good. And thats the idea that hell is for people who don't want to accept god's gift in that. Or to follow his teachings.
Which is why you see god pretty wrathful in the old testament, he don't want us to go our ways, but to stay pure to his way so that we wont sway of the right path. Which may be why Psalm 23 is so popular ^^.

I am fan of Lord of the rings too Big Grin
Read the hobbit and silmarillion. J.R.R tolkien is an amazing author.

Telling someone you must behave a certain way and love and worship them or risk torture is abuse not love. And why are we supposed to love God unconditionally despite all his smitings/rapes/curses/starvation/disease/etc. when he does not love us unconditionally if we think for ourselves/love who we want to love/work on the sabbath to feed our families/enjoy masturbation/etc.?
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