Atheism: Ignorance on "the old and new covenant"
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23-11-2015, 06:21 PM
RE: Atheism: Ignorance on "the old and new covenant"
(23-11-2015 05:19 PM)Keiya Wrote:  
Quote: But God did evil to the women by making David's son rape them. It wasn't a natural cause and effect of someone's actions. God made it happen. That is an evil being.
Yes. But he didn't do it just because he felt like it. David sinned, and this was the result of it. Its kinda like if you are punished if you do evil, consequences happens. In this case, because David disobeyed god he made this happen as a result.

You don't see anything wrong with a god who would order a rape of innocent women and the death of a baby because of someone else's sin?
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23-11-2015, 06:22 PM (This post was last modified: 23-11-2015 06:29 PM by Keiya.)
RE: Atheism: Ignorance on "the old and new covenant"
(23-11-2015 06:21 PM)jennybee Wrote:  
(23-11-2015 05:19 PM)Keiya Wrote:  Yes. But he didn't do it just because he felt like it. David sinned, and this was the result of it. Its kinda like if you are punished if you do evil, consequences happens. In this case, because David disobeyed god he made this happen as a result.

You don't see anything wrong with a god who would order a rape of innocent women and the death of a baby because of someone else's sin?

Its very wrong, but you sow what you reap. Thats the idea basically with theology of wrathful god. He hates what we do that goes against him. Which is worse. And from that bad stuff happens.
Quote:But it's not Jewish law. Matthew 5 insists that all laws are still binding. That means Levitical law still applies. I'm not sure why Christians still claim that they shouldn't follow Old Testament law, when in fact the New Testament says they must. I used to be a Christian, too, and I realized this, too.
But jesus says "To fulfill" too. Dont forget that line, and he does stuff that contradicts stuff that the old law does like "Eating only these types of food. Which he declared clean in this case" or "his sin will be a ransom for many" and "I am, you shall see the son of man coming on clouds of heaven" look up daniel 7:13-14 for reference. All adds up.Like the commandments and laws are valid yes, but you dont have to follow jewish practices, which more or less is the laws of jews in the old covenant. Which is why Jesus' death is crucial to christianity. That you can be forgiven just by believing in his grace. And thats the idea of the ultimate sacrifice. Jews sacrificed animals to please yahweh, here his only son gave his life so that we can enter paradise by faith. And thats the ultimate sacrifice jesus paid on the cross for us.
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23-11-2015, 06:25 PM
RE: Atheism: Ignorance on "the old and new covenant"
(23-11-2015 06:22 PM)Keiya Wrote:  
(23-11-2015 06:21 PM)jennybee Wrote:  You don't see anything wrong with a god who would order a rape of innocent women and the death of a baby because of someone else's sin?

Its very wrong, but you sow what you reap. Thats the idea basically with theology of wrathful god. He hates what we do that goes against him. Which is worse. And from that bad stuff happens.

Is being punished for eternity for a finite crime, like disbelief, an example of "sowing what you reap"?.
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23-11-2015, 06:26 PM
RE: Atheism: Ignorance on "the old and new covenant"
(23-11-2015 06:22 PM)Keiya Wrote:  Its very wrong, but you sow what you reap.

Consider

Facepalm

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23-11-2015, 06:29 PM
RE: Atheism: Ignorance on "the old and new covenant"
(23-11-2015 05:34 PM)Keiya Wrote:  
(23-11-2015 05:26 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  geez where to start?

Let's see

There is ZERO evidence for a god, so there's that.

Moses was not a real person, he was a fabrication character from older hero god types in ancient legends....education is the key to power, embrace some.

Not one person who EVER wrote of jesus, knew him. All stories, and people love to tell stories don't they?

But in reference to the mythical god who gave the never existed moses the ten commmandments, isn't it odd that rape, incest and slavery didn't make the top ten don't do it list, but covet not thy neighbor did....it is almost as if a man wrote those...oh wait, that is because they did.

The creator of god is man, made in our own image.

I am glad you asked this question.

I am very well aware from top scholars that the gospels are not an eyewitness account. But the fact that historians accept the stuff that is in it as historical facts like "Baptism" and "crucifixion" is crucial to it being true.

Even though they may be ultimately sceptic in terms of Jesus' teachings Tongue
So what if they were stories told by christians. That doesn't make them less reliable or true. In Paul's letters which is from him, you see stuff with the same message "Jesus was crucified, raised from the death" if this is not true then christianity as we know it has no ground to stand on. Which is why i believe it.

As for moses... i am well aware. But it doesn't matter in this case. Jesus could've just use theological point. This disproves more judaism than christianity since they need more ground in this case.

Well because rape and incest is wrong. War is awful though where awful stuff happens, its the consequences of it happening. Evil itself is wicked.
Also incest is condemned in leviticus. Even if some earlier have that part with Lot and his daughters.

God is a philosophical view, so i am not denying that people are ultimately sceptic of the idea. But what differs god from... fairytales as you would call it Tongue. Is that he is more central to our origin of life and behavior. Thats kinda what differs in practice, while fairytales are more just for amusements.
Quote: God was forced to have the women raped? He couldn't find a way to punish David that didn't involve harming innocent parties?
Everything is written this way to teach a theological point of view. Its not up to us to pick and choose Smile

Okay. Not up to us to pick and choose. So you are planning on being a submissive wife? You are planning on beating your child with a rod? You are planning on stoning anyone who is in a same sex rship or believes differently than you do? You are never going to get divorced *even* if you're husband beats you? You are planning on staying quiet and not speaking over a man? All of that is courtesy of the NT, btw.
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23-11-2015, 06:29 PM
RE: Atheism: Ignorance on "the old and new covenant"
(23-11-2015 11:36 AM)izel Wrote:  
(23-11-2015 11:34 AM)jennybee Wrote:  I want Jason Statham, a neverending supply of Justin's dark chocolate peanut butter cups, a shoe mountain, and a cloud to do yoga on. Hobo

Jennyyyy this is why I Heart you. You are the only one knows exactly what I'm thinking Tongue

Did someone say shoes? Smile

Shoes.....Drooling

Oh! and what's this thread about? Geeze, it must be getting near Dec 25th, the ancient Saturnalia holiday, cause several christians are doing a driveby trying to convert us. Laugh out load

That's a real knee slapper! Laugh out load

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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23-11-2015, 06:37 PM
RE: Atheism: Ignorance on "the old and new covenant"
(23-11-2015 06:22 PM)Keiya Wrote:  Its very wrong, but you sow what you reap.

It is wrong, but it is justifiable? Why are you so ready to make excuses for behavior that you agree is wrong?

Quote:Thats the idea basically with theology of wrathful god. He hates what we do that goes against him. Which is worse.

What's worse? Are you saying that people can do things to the god that are worse than what the god can do to the people? If so, that's ridiculous.

Quote: And from that bad stuff happens.

No, the "bad stuff" is because of a petty, childish, vindictive tyrant according to your beliefs.

Quote:
Quote:But it's not Jewish law. Matthew 5 insists that all laws are still binding. That means Levitical law still applies. I'm not sure why Christians still claim that they shouldn't follow Old Testament law, when in fact the New Testament says they must. I used to be a Christian, too, and I realized this, too.
But jesus says "To fulfill" too. Dont forget that line, and he does stuff that contradicts stuff that the old law does like "Eating only these types of food. Which he declared clean in this case" or "his sin will be a ransom for many" and "I am, you shall see the son of man coming on clouds of heaven" look up daniel 7:13-14 for reference. All adds up.

(your earlier post has a mismatched quote tag which is why that part didn't show)

No, it doesn't add up. When he says that all the laws are to be kept and then proceeds to break several of them he is a hypocrite at best.

Quote:Like the commandments and laws are valid yes, but you dont have to follow jewish practices, which more or less is the laws of jews in the old covenant. Which is why Jesus' death is crucial to christianity. That you can be forgiven just by believing in his grace.

The commandments and laws are valid (which must mean they are applicable and required) but you can ignore them... you can be forgiven for breaking the laws by believing in somebody who said that the laws must be kept... Christian theology is far too twisted to make any sense at all. No wonder you have to use faith to accept it; reason just dies quietly in the corner when faced with this.

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23-11-2015, 06:38 PM
RE: Atheism: Ignorance on "the old and new covenant"
(23-11-2015 06:22 PM)Keiya Wrote:  
(23-11-2015 06:21 PM)jennybee Wrote:  You don't see anything wrong with a god who would order a rape of innocent women and the death of a baby because of someone else's sin?

Its very wrong, but you sow what you reap. Thats the idea basically with theology of wrathful god. He hates what we do that goes against him. Which is worse. And from that bad stuff happens.
Quote:But it's not Jewish law. Matthew 5 insists that all laws are still binding. That means Levitical law still applies. I'm not sure why Christians still claim that they shouldn't follow Old Testament law, when in fact the New Testament says they must. I used to be a Christian, too, and I realized this, too.
But jesus says "To fulfill" too. Dont forget that line, and he does stuff that contradicts stuff that the old law does like "Eating only these types of food. Which he declared clean in this case" or "his sin will be a ransom for many" and "I am, you shall see the son of man coming on clouds of heaven" look up daniel 7:13-14 for reference. All adds up.Like the commandments and laws are valid yes, but you dont have to follow jewish practices, which more or less is the laws of jews in the old covenant. Which is why Jesus' death is crucial to christianity. That you can be forgiven just by believing in his grace. And thats the idea of the ultimate sacrifice. Jews sacrificed animals to please yahweh, here his only son gave his life so that we can enter paradise by faith. And thats the ultimate sacrifice jesus paid on the cross for us.

Why would you worship a being that is so full of wrath? Let's take god out of the equation. If a person was doing this--what would you think of a person who did things like that? Would you sacrifice your child if a person told you to? If some guy told you he wanted to know how much you loved and feared him--and the only way he would know is if you killed your child in his honor. What would you think of a person like that?

Also, how do you explain Job? No wrath there--just God wanting to know how much Job truly loved him. God then allowed Job's entire family to be killed. You don't think that's psychotic behavior?
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23-11-2015, 06:39 PM (This post was last modified: 23-11-2015 06:48 PM by Keiya.)
RE: Atheism: Ignorance on "the old and new covenant"
(23-11-2015 06:25 PM)Simon Moon Wrote:  
(23-11-2015 06:22 PM)Keiya Wrote:  Its very wrong, but you sow what you reap. Thats the idea basically with theology of wrathful god. He hates what we do that goes against him. Which is worse. And from that bad stuff happens.

Is being punished for eternity for a finite crime, like disbelief, an example of "sowing what you reap"?.

Yes. Because its the idea to not accept god in your life. And thats usually comes with practices. But dont get me wrong. Its hypocritical if a religious is all awe when he/she doesn't practice what he/she believes. So they too are accountable if they dont follow what they preach.

Its terms of morality. Since people who disbelieve have a subjective form of morality, which i argue that. Lets say i think its ok to cheat on my wife if it doesn't hurt her? Psychologically its bad for example, do they really mean that?

Thats the problem i have with it. And thats why i think its just to have some form of judgement in terms of this with faith. Since it involves putting your trust in god and accept that he knows the best way for us.
Quote:Okay. Not up to us to pick and choose. So you are planning on being a submissive wife? You are planning on beating your child with a rod?
Well i am not abided by jewish laws, so the idea of stoning people is foreign to me Tongue. But if you mean homosexuality is a sin. Actually there have been liberal christians who have been open to homosexuality... which i am not so sure of. I mean christians are not under the old law, but it does say "If a man lies with a man as with a woman" in the old testament.
I don't know jewish tradition if they believed this to mean homosexuality or if it just was some pagan temple prostitution... which is what some liberal christian believe. They argue that stuff in new testament for homosexual was not added til much later "Which is not untrue in a way. Which some argue was because they didnt have a word for homosexual back then"
Its two words for it in the new testament, which liberal christians argue it not refering to homosexual acts, since there was a more common word paul could have used if he wanted to condemn it.

Whether or not this is true or not... i am just more or less observing. I need more information to say the least. Lust is considered a sin though, so if homosexuals would be christians, they cant lust in the sense. And there is also this tradition of sodomites, which means anal or oral sex.... Although some will say its more or less due to inhospitality. But tradition has it to unethical stuff... So i still hold onto that homosexuality is a sin. Although i am well aware of genetic transferring and those stuff, but i also believe its a biological reason aswell.

And i am not a female. But i would submit to one if i were. Since god is Lord ^^. But in modern times when paul said "I do not allow women to teach"... i am not 100% sure if its literally. Some say it just mean priesthood and not like everything else. But i can see where the idea is coming from
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23-11-2015, 06:48 PM
RE: Atheism: Ignorance on "the old and new covenant"
(23-11-2015 06:39 PM)Keiya Wrote:  
(23-11-2015 06:25 PM)Simon Moon Wrote:  Is being punished for eternity for a finite crime, like disbelief, an example of "sowing what you reap"?.

Yes. Because its the idea to not accept god in your life. And thats usually comes with practices. But dont get me wrong. Its hypocritical if a religious is all awe when he/she doesn't practice what he/she believes. So they too are accountable if they dont follow what they preach.

Its terms of morality. Since people who disbelieve have a subjective form of morality, which i argue that. Lets say i think its ok to cheat on my wife if it doesn't hurt her? Psychologically its bad for example, do they really mean that?

Thats the problem i have with it. And thats why i think its just to have some form of judgement in terms of this with faith. Since it involves putting your trust in god and accept that he knows the best way for us.

Please address the point of infinite punishment for the very finite 'crime' of disobeying.

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