Atheism: Ignorance on "the old and new covenant"
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23-11-2015, 08:18 PM
RE: Atheism: Ignorance on "the old and new covenant"
.... Stupid finals. Angry
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23-11-2015, 08:19 PM
RE: Atheism: Ignorance on "the old and new covenant"
(23-11-2015 07:11 PM)Keiya Wrote:  Book of Daniel. Well the point is Jesus quoted it. Thats what matters Smile. But i sorta knew this already. But i am thankful for mentioning it ^^
Quote:Are you ever going to actually answer a question or will you just continue to duck and weave? If you can't justify raping of innocent women as punishment for a man who disobeyed, just say so.
Its more that you didnt like my answer i believe. I said, bad stuff happens because people didnt follow god. this was one example of it. Thats the main idea basically. Much of the god in the old testament does this to people because they want to follow their ways, and not his ways.

Again, punishment was meted out to the women when he was the one that disobeyed. How is that justified? Why were they the ones who were punished and not him?

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23-11-2015, 08:35 PM
RE: Atheism: Ignorance on "the old and new covenant"
I'm pretty sure that with a short questionnaire, we could "prove" to Keiya that she is going to hell based on the very same rules she claims to adhere to.

Christianity is a field job that involves cherries.

I prefer fantasy, but I have to live in reality.
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24-11-2015, 07:48 AM
RE: Atheism: Ignorance on "the old and new covenant"
(23-11-2015 05:34 PM)Keiya Wrote:  I am very well aware from top scholars that the gospels are not an eyewitness account. But the fact that historians accept the stuff that is in it as historical facts like "Baptism" and "crucifixion" is crucial to it being true.

Even though they may be ultimately sceptic in terms of Jesus' teachings Tongue
So what if they were stories told by christians. That doesn't make them less reliable or true. In Paul's letters which is from him, you see stuff with the same message "Jesus was crucified, raised from the death" if this is not true then christianity as we know it has no ground to stand on. Which is why i believe it.

These two things don't lead to each other. You're picking the parts of what historians say that bolster your claims as evidence you're right, and ignoring the parts where they don't accept all the magic parts of the story.

Your stated reason for believing is because you want to. 1.5 billion Muslims want to believe in Islam.


(23-11-2015 05:34 PM)Keiya Wrote:  Also incest is condemned in leviticus. Even if some earlier have that part with Lot and his daughters.

Yeah, but that's in the Old Testament. The same place that says we can't eat bacon or shellfish, can't wear blended fabrics, and had all that stuff about rape victims marrying their rapists, and all of the genocides.

Your OP explicitly said that that was the old covenant, but we're worried about the new. What gives? Are we worried about it, or not?


(23-11-2015 05:34 PM)Keiya Wrote:  Everything is written this way to teach a theological point of view. Its not up to us to pick and choose Smile

But that seems like exactly what you're doing. You're picking which parts of the Bible are literal and which are metaphorical. You're picking which parts apply now and which only applied then... all to get to a specific narrative.

I could pick and choose different parts, come up with a different theology, and then complain to my detractors that they can't pick and choose.
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24-11-2015, 07:59 AM
RE: Atheism: Ignorance on "the old and new covenant"
(23-11-2015 07:11 PM)Keiya Wrote:  
Quote:Are you ever going to actually answer a question or will you just continue to duck and weave? If you can't justify raping of innocent women as punishment for a man who disobeyed, just say so.
Its more that you didnt like my answer i believe. I said, bad stuff happens because people didnt follow god. this was one example of it. Thats the main idea basically. Much of the god in the old testament does this to people because they want to follow their ways, and not his ways.

No, it is that your answer was a non-answer. Person A did something that your god didn't like. Your god then caused bad things to happen to persons B, C, and D. That is immoral by any standard worth following. Your god is evil. The only good part is that there's no reason to believe it exists.

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24-11-2015, 08:12 AM (This post was last modified: 24-11-2015 08:16 AM by TheInquisition.)
RE: Atheism: Ignorance on "the old and new covenant"
(23-11-2015 07:56 PM)Keiya Wrote:  
(23-11-2015 07:54 PM)DerFish Wrote:  But wouldn't agree that it would take a pretty warped God to "Delight in" having animals butchered so the smell could rise to Heaven for Him to delight in it?

Its his methods. If it is so then it is so. Its not to object to it, its simply doing it and obeying it that is the key Smile.
And that was the way of the old covenant god did with the jews.

It's not HIS methods, it's a blood magic ritual concept that's borrowed from practices of the Sumerians and Babylonians by the writers of the Bible. In the case of Genesis, when this blood magic ritual was first mentioned, that would be the "P" source and the "J" source who copied it from other sources.

See Panbabylonism for more info on the origins of biblical myth and rituals.

There is no fundamental difference between this god and the other ancient gods who demanded blood sacrifice to appease them. The ancient practice of blood magic predates the Hebrew religion over 1000 years. All the Hebrews did was slap their god label onto it.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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24-11-2015, 08:24 AM
RE: Atheism: Ignorance on "the old and new covenant"
(24-11-2015 08:12 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  
(23-11-2015 07:56 PM)Keiya Wrote:  Its his methods. If it is so then it is so. Its not to object to it, its simply doing it and obeying it that is the key Smile.
And that was the way of the old covenant god did with the jews.

It's not HIS methods, it's a blood magic ritual concept that's borrowed from practices of the Sumerians and Babylonians by the writers of the Bible. In the case of Genesis, when this blood magic ritual was first mentioned, that would be the "P" source and the "J" source who copied it from other sources.

See Panbabylonism for more info on the origins of biblical myth and rituals.

There is no fundamental difference between this god and the other ancient gods who demanded blood sacrifice to appease them. The ancient practice of blood magic predates the Hebrew religion over 1000 years. All the Hebrews did was slap their god label onto it.

You are referencing sources that I would be shocked Keiya is even aware of.
It is much easier and less troublesome if a believer doesn’t look too hard at the evidence...or lack thereof.

People like the story, no need to go throwing P’s and J’s at it, not everyone likes peanut butter and jelly sandwiches, too messy.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
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24-11-2015, 08:47 AM (This post was last modified: 24-11-2015 02:40 PM by Brian37.)
RE: Atheism: Ignorance on "the old and new covenant"
(23-11-2015 08:51 AM)Keiya Wrote:  Not saying this to be insulting. But, i usually hear on the internet. Usually from atheists saying "Wow can you believe what the old testament says?" usually with the

"Marrying daughter who is virgin when raped and have to pay 30 sekels or something to father"

"Mauling children, bear does it because kids called a guy baldy"

"Drowning people for not doing what god wants them to do"

If there is stuff i haven't mentioned that you don't like then feel free to add them too.
But basically. The thing is Jesus is the new covenant that Christians follow. Does this makes the old covenant invalid, nope. Absolutely not. But here is the keyrole. If you want to keep the jewish laws "Basically you become jew" then you have to obey every law. Jesus is what christians follow, and that you pray and believe in him. Which is the symbolic idea of crucifixion. Is that in the book of moses, usually called with 5 different names like exoddus, leviticus etc. It is talking about how to please Yahweh your god. And that is usually animal sacrifices, the blood was symbolic in that case as it cleansed sin, atleast from what i remember from reading about it. So the idea that Jesus is the ultimate sacrifice so that anyone who follows him will go to heaven. Is the ideal. You may think "Where does Jesus say that"

Its hinted lots of times.
Jesus says his sins will be a ransom for many. (Which leads to the ultimate sacrifice)
Mark 10:45

And here Jesus says he is god. Ok, this doesnt make any sense by itself... but
Mark 14:62

If you add Daniel in context to what he says
Daniel 7:13-14
Then he clearly says he is.

So Paul wasn't just fooling around. He knew exactly what Jesus was talking about.

Now ok then. I got the theology. Atheists will say God is evil in the old. And they may think so. But if we lets say "morale is subjective" then wouldn't that mean that i can say "Well i think cheating on my wife is morale?" i mean the reason why god is so wrathful and angry in the old is to give a theological point. He hates what we do. And thats why he does the thing he does. Like cursing is not something god likes. Marrying someone and keep the law is more or less a punishment if you think about it. But the idea is to obey god and keep his laws. Now Jesus was sent so that all could have his grace and be saved by faith, and not by condemnation.

Well i have probably not covered all. But i hope this gives a little insight into the religion

What i think is that god knows the best for us. And that's why i struggle to try and be good that way.

Well... i am sorry if i sounded too preachy. I am looking forward to hearing your answers ^^

Nice cosmic security guard you have there.

Now would you value the plot of a Superman movie, if Superman/Clark Kent, walked past an ally, watching a woman get raped, get her throat slit and bled to death and he only did something after the fact? I don't know about you, but I would demand my money back.

Is that what you mean by "God knows what is best for us"?

If you hire a baby sitter and they said, "Yea I used to neglect kids and let them be abused, but sometimes I stepped in, but not always" would you think that baby sitter knows what is best for your kid?

The OT God cannot be removed from the entire book, he is still there at the end of the book, the attempt to make him less of a deadbeat does not change he goes back to getting violent at the end of the book.

NOW mind you, I am NOT saying this because I believe in this god, I don't. And yes, I do know it offends you. But not to hurt you or even demand the end of religion by force.

I am giving you my book review, or movie review, just like I would a bad book or a bad movie.

This character starts out right from the bat, making a bet with an arch rival he didn't have to create in the first place, and uses two pawns as poker chips, them blames them for something they had no say in or control over.

Then when that does not work, he does the same thing with the flood, and murders all those who didn't kiss his butt.

Then when that doesn't work, just like an abusive spouse, he brings her flowers"Jesus" and even then, says if you don't follow Jesus, you will be punished too. Jesus even in the NT tells his followers to abandon their own family and friends if they don't follow him.

But, even after that promise not to get violent the God character goes right back to doing it again at the end of the book.

I have no doubt that you personally believe this god is good, I do doubt your ability to separate what you would like to believe, from the actual depictions of ALL the words, without skipping over the inconvenient parts.Yet, I am sure you can point out the violence depicted in the Koran without thinking you are being bigoted for doing so. I don't doubt that you want to believe that the god character you believe in is good. I do doubt your objectivity in assessing the language in the bible without bias.

Poetry by Brian37(poems by an atheist) Also on Facebook as BrianJames Rational Poet and Twitter Brianrrs37
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24-11-2015, 09:24 AM
RE: Atheism: Ignorance on "the old and new covenant"
(23-11-2015 08:35 PM)Adrianime Wrote:  I'm pretty sure that with a short questionnaire, we could "prove" to Keiya that she is going to hell based on the very same rules she claims to adhere to.

Christianity is a field job that involves cherries.

No, ALL religions involve cherry picking, every single one in human history. The idea, the word "religion" itself is problematic, it is the artificial excuse humans make up to avoid the fact that we are the same species.

Even with well intended liberals of all labels. They have the empathy and intent, but fail to see that if they can accept those outside their label can be good, and do good, and all religions have motifs of kindness, then that should tell them something.

That it is not a book or a club that makes us good, but that our behavior is in us. Just like the baseball player won the game because of his performance and not the lucky bat.

Same can be said for even the religions of Asia and the Orient, there are Tibet's Buddhists, Chinese Buddhists, and Japanese Buddhists, and all point to their differences and all claim that their religions make them good.

Same with Sunnis and Shiites, same with Catholics and Protestants.

I am the guy on the outside saying, no, if you are good, and non violent, you are doing it, not your book, not your club.

Poetry by Brian37(poems by an atheist) Also on Facebook as BrianJames Rational Poet and Twitter Brianrrs37
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24-11-2015, 10:43 AM
RE: Atheism: Ignorance on "the old and new covenant"
(24-11-2015 07:59 AM)unfogged Wrote:  
(23-11-2015 07:11 PM)Keiya Wrote:  Its more that you didnt like my answer i believe. I said, bad stuff happens because people didnt follow god. this was one example of it. Thats the main idea basically. Much of the god in the old testament does this to people because they want to follow their ways, and not his ways.

No, it is that your answer was a non-answer. Person A did something that your god didn't like. Your god then caused bad things to happen to persons B, C, and D. That is immoral by any standard worth following. Your god is evil. The only good part is that there's no reason to believe it exists.

It's actually weirder than that.

The whole "marry your rapist" thing comes from a weird culture that doesn't value women who can't be married. The reason the woman is married to her rapist and the father paid the fine is because when a virgin is raped, she becomes worthless to the unmarried men. She won't get married, and her father is stuck with her.

It's really quite illustrative as to what those people really valued. The whole problem could have been fixed by God telling them "women are important, even if they aren't virgins or married" and been done with it... yet, he was suspiciously silent. The three (and only three) possible take-homes:
  • God doesn't care if people are raped.
  • God, too, doesn't value women who aren't virgins or married.
  • God doesn't exist.
The Christian/Jew/Muslim is stuck with one of those first two options.
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