Atheism: Ignorance on "the old and new covenant"
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23-11-2015, 10:58 AM
RE: Atheism: Ignorance on "the old and new covenant"
Some people who enjoy textual analysis do get into discussions like that. It gets heated when a textual analyst argues with a textual literalist, regardless of their religious beliefs. Between a believer and a non-believer, that heat can lead to strong words. Between believers, it can lead to schisms and reformations.

Many atheists really don't care what religious texts say though. The news just seems more relevant, not to mention more revealing of the practical reality of religion.
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23-11-2015, 11:03 AM
RE: Atheism: Ignorance on "the old and new covenant"
(23-11-2015 10:58 AM)I Am Wrote:  <came back like a proverbial prodigal son>

Welcome back Smile

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23-11-2015, 11:04 AM
RE: Atheism: Ignorance on "the old and new covenant"
The Bible was written for political reasons. Not for religious reasons.
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...ble-Bull-s
Paul didn't say what Christians say he said.
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...other-look

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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23-11-2015, 11:05 AM (This post was last modified: 23-11-2015 12:10 PM by Reltzik.)
RE: Atheism: Ignorance on "the old and new covenant"
(23-11-2015 08:51 AM)Keiya Wrote:  Not saying this to be insulting. But, i usually hear on the internet. Usually from atheists saying "Wow can you believe what the old testament says?" usually with the

"Marrying daughter who is virgin when raped and have to pay 30 sekels or something to father"

"Mauling children, bear does it because kids called a guy baldy"

"Drowning people for not doing what god wants them to do"

If there is stuff i haven't mentioned that you don't like then feel free to add them too.
But basically. The thing is Jesus is the new covenant that Christians follow. Does this makes the old covenant invalid, nope. Absolutely not. But here is the keyrole. If you want to keep the jewish laws "Basically you become jew" then you have to obey every law. Jesus is what christians follow, and that you pray and believe in him. Which is the symbolic idea of crucifixion. Is that in the book of moses, usually called with 5 different names like exoddus, leviticus etc. It is talking about how to please Yahweh your god. And that is usually animal sacrifices, the blood was symbolic in that case as it cleansed sin, atleast from what i remember from reading about it. So the idea that Jesus is the ultimate sacrifice so that anyone who follows him will go to heaven. Is the ideal. You may think "Where does Jesus say that"

Its hinted lots of times.
Jesus says his sins will be a ransom for many. (Which leads to the ultimate sacrifice)
Mark 10:45

And here Jesus says he is god. Ok, this doesnt make any sense by itself... but
Mark 14:62

If you add Daniel in context to what he says
Daniel 7:13-14
Then he clearly says he is.

So Paul wasn't just fooling around. He knew exactly what Jesus was talking about.

Now ok then. I got the theology. Atheists will say God is evil in the old. And they may think so. But if we lets say "morale is subjective" then wouldn't that mean that i can say "Well i think cheating on my wife is morale?" i mean the reason why god is so wrathful and angry in the old is to give a theological point. He hates what we do. And thats why he does the thing he does. Like cursing is not something god likes. Marrying someone and keep the law is more or less a punishment if you think about it. But the idea is to obey god and keep his laws. Now Jesus was sent so that all could have his grace and be saved by faith, and not by condemnation.

Well i have probably not covered all. But i hope this gives a little insight into the religion

What i think is that god knows the best for us. And that's why i struggle to try and be good that way.

Well... i am sorry if i sounded too preachy. I am looking forward to hearing your answers ^^

New/old covenant theology is common in many strains of Christianity, but it's hardly universal. Many individuals and denominations reject it. Yes, there are passages that can be interpreted in its favor, but other passages -- Jesus saying he came not to abolish the old law, or saying that not one jot or tittle shall pass away -- speak against it. There's ways of interpreting these passages away, and that's the problem. They can be interpreted either way.

A new covenant also would not exactly wash the Christian god's hands of all the evil he is depicted of committing in the Old Testament. Even if he might now have a nicer new deal on offer, he would still be the same (supposedly unchanging) being who not only placed the old deal on offer, but pretty much forced people to engage in (for example) the genocidal practices of Joshua under the duress of some very chilling threats. Might over a thousand years of this mandatory old covenant not say something about this being's fundamental character and its trustworthiness, even if he's since introduced a second model? Pick your (least) favorite mass-murdering tyrant from history. If he suddenly announced that he was founding a second nation in which his bloodthirsty ways would be considerably less bloodthirsty, would that excuse his past misdeeds? (Note that this wouldn't prove the being doesn't exist... just that it doesn't exist as the loving, benevolent figure you imagine him to be. He's either entirely imagined, or if real and as the Bible describes, not as imagined.)

Also, the new covenant is... still troubling on moral issues. In the old covenant, you could get out of it by fucking dying. The lake of fire and eternal torture in the afterlife don't make an appearance until the new testament, though some translations retroactively apply the term "hell" in place of going into the grave in the Old Testament. The new covenant still permits slave ownership and commands Christian slaves to serve Christian masters with extra fervor because of how good those masters will be. The new covenant still delegates women to second-class status (both here and in the afterlife). And, of course, the new covenant doesn't give a damn on morality. The only morality in the new covenant is "believe, repent, and follow". The most altruistic person can be sent to hell if they are not a Christian for a single sin, even just saying "goddammit" (taking the Lord's name in vain) on stubbing their toe, while the most heinous genocidal maniac can have a deathbed conversion and go to heaven. Of course, this is not how all Christians think the new covenant works, which brings us to the next problem.

The Christian understanding of the new covenant since its supposed inception has been... inconsistent. Drowning people, burning them alive, or crushing them to death because you've decided they're witches? Is that new covenant? Centuries of Christians believed so. Is it a heresy to believe that Christ wasn't wholly god or wholly man (the Nicaean creed)? Many Christians thought it was blasphemous to think so -- and others thought them blasphemous for not thinking so, which is why there aren't that many around any more. Slavery, again. Was the underground railroad an act of mass property theft and hence a sin? It's hard to interpret Jesus and Paul as saying otherwise (even with the one slave that Paul asked to be freed, it was clear he was respecting the property owner's rights and phrasing it as a simple request), and for most of the history of Christianity slavery has been regarded as A-OK... though today, of course, it is not. What of the divine right of kings? Death sentence for homosexuality? Are those new covenant or old? On and on. Answers over the centuries and across denominations have varied drastically, and it's still changing. What will Christians five centuries hence think of modern conceptions of the new covenant? Even interpreting the new covenant in the best light possible, as having as many good things and as few bad things as it is possible for any arrangement to have despite being frequently misunderstood and misapplied, it would still have to be said that it has been poorly understood by most of its adherents (which you should take to mean that YOU, personally, have low odds of having understood it correctly), poorly communicated by its author, and the source of considerable death, cruelty, oppression, warfare, and other mischief over many centuries of human history.

So lots of Christians buy into it. Lots of Christians buy into a new dispensation instead. Others reject both. Criticizing the religion's critics for firing off shots that aren't on target where your particular flavor of Christianity is concerned neglects the fact that Christianity is just too sprawling and varied for a single shot to hit the entire target.
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23-11-2015, 11:06 AM
RE: Atheism: Ignorance on "the old and new covenant"
(23-11-2015 10:39 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(23-11-2015 08:51 AM)Keiya Wrote:  Not saying this to be insulting. But, i usually hear on the internet. Usually from atheists saying "Wow can you believe what the old testament says?" usually with the

"Marrying daughter who is virgin when raped and have to pay 30 sekels or something to father"

"Mauling children, bear does it because kids called a guy baldy"

"Drowning people for not doing what god wants them to do"

If there is stuff i haven't mentioned that you don't like then feel free to add them too.
But basically. The thing is Jesus is the new covenant that Christians follow. Does this makes the old covenant invalid, nope. Absolutely not. But here is the keyrole. If you want to keep the jewish laws "Basically you become jew" then you have to obey every law. Jesus is what christians follow, and that you pray and believe in him. Which is the symbolic idea of crucifixion. Is that in the book of moses, usually called with 5 different names like exoddus, leviticus etc. It is talking about how to please Yahweh your god. And that is usually animal sacrifices, the blood was symbolic in that case as it cleansed sin, atleast from what i remember from reading about it. So the idea that Jesus is the ultimate sacrifice so that anyone who follows him will go to heaven. Is the ideal. You may think "Where does Jesus say that"

Its hinted lots of times.
Jesus says his sins will be a ransom for many. (Which leads to the ultimate sacrifice)
Mark 10:45

And here Jesus says he is god. Ok, this doesnt make any sense by itself... but
Mark 14:62

If you add Daniel in context to what he says
Daniel 7:13-14
Then he clearly says he is.

So Paul wasn't just fooling around. He knew exactly what Jesus was talking about.

Now ok then. I got the theology. Atheists will say God is evil in the old. And they may think so. But if we lets say "morale is subjective" then wouldn't that mean that i can say "Well i think cheating on my wife is morale?" i mean the reason why god is so wrathful and angry in the old is to give a theological point. He hates what we do. And thats why he does the thing he does. Like cursing is not something god likes. Marrying someone and keep the law is more or less a punishment if you think about it. But the idea is to obey god and keep his laws. Now Jesus was sent so that all could have his grace and be saved by faith, and not by condemnation.

Well i have probably not covered all. But i hope this gives a little insight into the religion

What i think is that god knows the best for us. And that's why i struggle to try and be good that way.

Well... i am sorry if i sounded too preachy. I am looking forward to hearing your answers ^^

Really. God knows what's best for us ?
Like it's "best for us" that MILLIONS of innocent babies starved this year ?
Are you on drugs ?

And you totally wrong about the Covenants. There was only one.
Genesis 9:12 "And God said, “This is the sign of the covenant I am making between me and you and every living creature with you, a covenant for all generations to come.

Now either your god is a damn liar, or he isn't.

Jesus does not agree with you, and neither does St. Paul.

Matthew 5:17-18
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished."

Earth has not "disappeared", as far as I can see.

Not only is the law still in place, but you as a woman need to be quiet.
1 Corinthians 14:34
"Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says."

He says nothing about a "new law". He says the law in still in place.

Have a nice (quiet) day.

Tongue

Well the reason evil exists is because wickedness is within people. So that can be anyone, even religious people are not excused if they do evil, which you shouldn't it should be expected. So the value doesn't go higher on that purpose. The thing is your life will change for the better if you believe, in stuff like "lets say you masturbate" its thing that eventually will go away, and a wife is worth forever in compared to stuff that you can get cheapily. And when you have sex with many you feel psychologically wronged by it. Not all may feel by it. Maybe if some bad stuff have happend in their life, which may be the reason why some become religious. But its not the same as true happiness i think.

Its true. But the people went away from god, which is why prophets prophciced of a savior who would save the jews. Thats where the new covenant comes in. That anyone can if they accept Jesus as their lord and savior. That was his gift to the world.

As for that. Its true. The covenant is still valid. He came to fulfill it. You can see examples like when he says nothing that you eat will defile you but what comes out of you will like "lewdness, theft, murder" which jesus speaks about.
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23-11-2015, 11:16 AM
RE: Atheism: Ignorance on "the old and new covenant"
(23-11-2015 11:06 AM)Keiya Wrote:  
(23-11-2015 10:39 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Really. God knows what's best for us ?
Like it's "best for us" that MILLIONS of innocent babies starved this year ?
Are you on drugs ?

And you totally wrong about the Covenants. There was only one.
Genesis 9:12 "And God said, “This is the sign of the covenant I am making between me and you and every living creature with you, a covenant for all generations to come.

Now either your god is a damn liar, or he isn't.

Jesus does not agree with you, and neither does St. Paul.

Matthew 5:17-18
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished."

Earth has not "disappeared", as far as I can see.

Not only is the law still in place, but you as a woman need to be quiet.
1 Corinthians 14:34
"Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says."

He says nothing about a "new law". He says the law in still in place.

Have a nice (quiet) day.

Tongue

Well the reason evil exists is because wickedness is within people. So that can be anyone, even religious people are not excused if they do evil, which you shouldn't it should be expected. So the value doesn't go higher on that purpose. The thing is your life will change for the better if you believe, in stuff like "lets say you masturbate" its thing that eventually will go away, and a wife is worth forever in compared to stuff that you can get cheapily. And when you have sex with many you feel psychologically wronged by it. Not all may feel by it. Maybe if some bad stuff have happend in their life, which may be the reason why some become religious. But its not the same as true happiness i think.

Its true. But the people went away from god, which is why prophets prophciced of a savior who would save the jews. Thats where the new covenant comes in. That anyone can if they accept Jesus as their lord and savior. That was his gift to the world.

As for that. Its true. The covenant is still valid. He came to fulfill it. You can see examples like when he says nothing that you eat will defile you but what comes out of you will like "lewdness, theft, murder" which jesus speaks about.

Nice try. You can stop preaching any time now. We are not simpletons as you seem to be. There is no difference between humans now and before Jebus, so "salvation" did not work. Many religious people are evil, and you have no evidence that people's lives are better, as believers. Prove it. Prophesy is not "prediction of the future" so I see you have no education in Biblical Study.
Your presumptions about behavior tell us more about YOU, than they tell us about what atheists do. You can't even prove that Jesus ever existed. You seem to be under the completely ignorant assumption that HONEST people who really don't buy your garbage can somehow choose to believe. We can't. Is you god so stupid he doesn't know that people who REALLY don't beleieve can just *say* they do ? Look up the words"intellectual honesty". Jebus said "No one shall come to me UNLESS the Father draw him". "Many are called but FEW are chosen". Now why would he say that if he picked EVERYONE ? You're a typical deluded fundie believer. We are not stupid.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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23-11-2015, 11:17 AM
RE: Atheism: Ignorance on "the old and new covenant"
(23-11-2015 08:51 AM)Keiya Wrote:  So Paul wasn't just fooling around. He knew exactly what Jesus was talking about.

Q: What do you call it if a person is with other people and only that person sees lights and hears a voice? A: A hallucination. Of course, the stranger the hallucinations, the more likely they are to be the basis for a religion.
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23-11-2015, 11:21 AM
RE: Atheism: Ignorance on "the old and new covenant"
(23-11-2015 11:06 AM)Keiya Wrote:  
(23-11-2015 10:39 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Really. God knows what's best for us ?
Like it's "best for us" that MILLIONS of innocent babies starved this year ?
Are you on drugs ?

And you totally wrong about the Covenants. There was only one.
Genesis 9:12 "And God said, “This is the sign of the covenant I am making between me and you and every living creature with you, a covenant for all generations to come.

Now either your god is a damn liar, or he isn't.

Jesus does not agree with you, and neither does St. Paul.

Matthew 5:17-18
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished."

Earth has not "disappeared", as far as I can see.

Not only is the law still in place, but you as a woman need to be quiet.
1 Corinthians 14:34
"Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says."

He says nothing about a "new law". He says the law in still in place.

Have a nice (quiet) day.

Tongue

Well the reason evil exists is because wickedness is within people. So that can be anyone, even religious people are not excused if they do evil, which you shouldn't it should be expected. So the value doesn't go higher on that purpose. The thing is your life will change for the better if you believe, in stuff like "lets say you masturbate" its thing that eventually will go away, and a wife is worth forever in compared to stuff that you can get cheapily. And when you have sex with many you feel psychologically wronged by it. Not all may feel by it. Maybe if some bad stuff have happend in their life, which may be the reason why some become religious. But its not the same as true happiness i think.

Its true. But the people went away from god, which is why prophets prophciced of a savior who would save the jews. Thats where the new covenant comes in. That anyone can if they accept Jesus as their lord and savior. That was his gift to the world.

As for that. Its true. The covenant is still valid. He came to fulfill it. You can see examples like when he says nothing that you eat will defile you but what comes out of you will like "lewdness, theft, murder" which jesus speaks about.

The OT prophets weren't talking about Jesus when they were talking about a savior. Christians distorted passages to fit their agenda.
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23-11-2015, 11:24 AM
RE: Atheism: Ignorance on "the old and new covenant"
I don't k ow bible that well, but I'm reading it. What I don't like as far as Quran goes, if man goes to heaven he'll have 7 gorgeous virgins, so beautiful that you'll be able to see through their skin. Not joking, that is exactly how it says. But, what about me? When I asked a friend, her response was, you slut. What? Why? As women, we're being treated unfairly on earth and heaven. No thank you God, I won't pray to you and or devote my life to you if you going to treat me less than I deserve. See my problem with religion? I want my 7 bad boys in heaven or else.

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23-11-2015, 11:25 AM
RE: Atheism: Ignorance on "the old and new covenant"
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Did I convert you?

"If we are honest—and scientists have to be—we must admit that religion is a jumble of false assertions, with no basis in reality.
The very idea of God is a product of the human imagination."
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