Atheism: Ignorance on "the old and new covenant"
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23-11-2015, 11:57 AM
RE: Atheism: Ignorance on "the old and new covenant"
(23-11-2015 11:54 AM)Keiya Wrote:  
(23-11-2015 11:51 AM)jennybee Wrote:  So the only reason u r believing is out of fear of hell? Is that really a good reason to believe in a book that advocates hate?

Fear is not necessarily a bad thing. Psychological traumas and dillemma is bad though, if you seem to not function. But fearing because of what god knows the best way for us i think is a good thing. But remember, the new testament statest plenty of times "Fear not" good news is nothing to fear ^^

Well i believe because i think its true too. So its not just out of fear. But also because my life is better and rewards me because of the belief.

"But also because my life is better and rewards me because of the belief."

Confirmation bias. You assume the quality of your life is directly related to your beliefs, but non-believers and adherents of other faiths can have lives just as fruitful (or more so) than your own.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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23-11-2015, 11:58 AM
RE: Atheism: Ignorance on "the old and new covenant"
(23-11-2015 11:56 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(23-11-2015 11:54 AM)Keiya Wrote:  Fear is not necessarily a bad thing. Psychological traumas and dillemma is bad though, if you seem to not function. But fearing because of what god knows the best way for us i think is a good thing. But remember, the new testament statest plenty of times "Fear not" good news is nothing to fear ^^

Well i believe because i think its true too. So its not just out of fear. But also because my life is better and rewards me because of the belief.

You do realize I hope, the Hebrews in the OT did not believe in heaven and hell.

Ah yes. Sheol if i recall. Well Satan was an adversary. But i see where you are going Smile
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23-11-2015, 12:03 PM
RE: Atheism: Ignorance on "the old and new covenant"
(23-11-2015 11:51 AM)jennybee Wrote:  
(23-11-2015 11:49 AM)Keiya Wrote:  Well thats not how monotheism works so that would be a sin. But besides, i dont think other religions have the idea of "Non worship = Hell" Zoroastrianism i think bases it on your actions.

Abrahamic is more or less if you choose to disbelieve. I don't think other religions have that as a concept.

So the only reason u r believing is out of fear of hell? Is that really a good reason to believe in a book that advocates hate?

I would hope an omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent god could tell the difference between someone Poe'ing their way into heaven and a real™ believer. Drinking Beverage

But considering how many religious people use a varient of Pascal's wager as an excuse to believe...

I suppose deep down they must believe god isn't any of those things and not at all smarter than themselves.


But as if to knock me down, reality came around
And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

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23-11-2015, 12:05 PM
RE: Atheism: Ignorance on "the old and new covenant"
(23-11-2015 11:54 AM)Keiya Wrote:  
(23-11-2015 11:51 AM)jennybee Wrote:  So the only reason u r believing is out of fear of hell? Is that really a good reason to believe in a book that advocates hate?

Fear is not necessarily a bad thing. Psychological traumas and dillemma is bad though, if you seem to not function. But fearing because of what god knows the best way for us i think is a good thing. But remember, the new testament statest plenty of times "Fear not" good news is nothing to fear ^^

Well i believe because i think its true too. So its not just out of fear. But also because my life is better and rewards me because of the belief.

What would you classify as a psychological trauma? Getting raped by your husband's son by God's command like in the Book of Samuel? Having your first born being murdered at the hands of God as was done in Exodus? Asking you to sacrifice your son to prove your love for God as was done to Abraham? Having your daughter stoned to death for not having the appearance of virginity on her wedding night?
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23-11-2015, 12:12 PM
RE: Atheism: Ignorance on "the old and new covenant"
(23-11-2015 12:05 PM)jennybee Wrote:  
(23-11-2015 11:54 AM)Keiya Wrote:  Fear is not necessarily a bad thing. Psychological traumas and dillemma is bad though, if you seem to not function. But fearing because of what god knows the best way for us i think is a good thing. But remember, the new testament statest plenty of times "Fear not" good news is nothing to fear ^^

Well i believe because i think its true too. So its not just out of fear. But also because my life is better and rewards me because of the belief.

What would you classify as a psychological trauma? Getting raped by your husband's son by God's command like in the Book of Samuel? Having your first born being murdered at the hands of God as was done in Exodus? Asking you to sacrifice your son to prove your love for God as was done to Abraham? Having your daughter stoned to death for not having the appearance of virginity on her wedding night?
I dont remember that part in Samuel? What verse? I know the part where a brother raped a sister or something in terms of David getting furious about it. I am bad with names i know Tongue

What i mean is lets say "online blackmailing... if someone records you and blackmails you if you are ignorant and masturbates or send nude photos". Just to mention some psychological dillemmas of shame.
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23-11-2015, 12:15 PM
RE: Atheism: Ignorance on "the old and new covenant"
(23-11-2015 11:58 AM)Keiya Wrote:  
(23-11-2015 11:56 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  You do realize I hope, the Hebrews in the OT did not believe in heaven and hell.

Ah yes. Sheol if i recall. Well Satan was an adversary. But i see where you are going Smile

Satan was the "deceiver", and the origins of satan came from Babylonian myths. There was no heaven and no hell. Sheol was NOT where Yahweh lived.
Satan was not an "adversary". That's simply Fundie ignorance of Hebrew literature.

Psalm 39 :
"Turn your gaze away from me, that I may smile again,
before I depart, and am no more"

Psalm 115 :
The dead do not praise the Lord,
nor do any that go down into silence".

However ALL the dead, both good and bad, were thought to go to an underground region called "Sheol". And Sheol is referenced in mostly the Wisdom texts. It's certainly NOT where God lives.
Psalm 6 : "For in death there is no remembrance of you, in Sheol, who can give you praise ?"

Christianity cooked up heaven and hell, to scare people. It makes no sense AT ALL. It's not Biblical.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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23-11-2015, 12:16 PM (This post was last modified: 23-11-2015 12:21 PM by goodwithoutgod.)
RE: Atheism: Ignorance on "the old and new covenant"
(23-11-2015 08:51 AM)Keiya Wrote:  Not saying this to be insulting. But, i usually hear on the internet. Usually from atheists saying "Wow can you believe what the old testament says?" usually with the

"Marrying daughter who is virgin when raped and have to pay 30 sekels or something to father"

"Mauling children, bear does it because kids called a guy baldy"

"Drowning people for not doing what god wants them to do"

If there is stuff i haven't mentioned that you don't like then feel free to add them too.
But basically. The thing is Jesus is the new covenant that Christians follow. Does this makes the old covenant invalid, nope. Absolutely not. But here is the keyrole. If you want to keep the jewish laws "Basically you become jew" then you have to obey every law. Jesus is what christians follow, and that you pray and believe in him. Which is the symbolic idea of crucifixion. Is that in the book of moses, usually called with 5 different names like exoddus, leviticus etc. It is talking about how to please Yahweh your god. And that is usually animal sacrifices, the blood was symbolic in that case as it cleansed sin, atleast from what i remember from reading about it. So the idea that Jesus is the ultimate sacrifice so that anyone who follows him will go to heaven. Is the ideal. You may think "Where does Jesus say that"

Its hinted lots of times.
Jesus says his sins will be a ransom for many. (Which leads to the ultimate sacrifice)
Mark 10:45

And here Jesus says he is god. Ok, this doesnt make any sense by itself... but
Mark 14:62

If you add Daniel in context to what he says
Daniel 7:13-14
Then he clearly says he is.

So Paul wasn't just fooling around. He knew exactly what Jesus was talking about.

Now ok then. I got the theology. Atheists will say God is evil in the old. And they may think so. But if we lets say "morale is subjective" then wouldn't that mean that i can say "Well i think cheating on my wife is morale?" i mean the reason why god is so wrathful and angry in the old is to give a theological point. He hates what we do. And thats why he does the thing he does. Like cursing is not something god likes. Marrying someone and keep the law is more or less a punishment if you think about it. But the idea is to obey god and keep his laws. Now Jesus was sent so that all could have his grace and be saved by faith, and not by condemnation.

Well i have probably not covered all. But i hope this gives a little insight into the religion

What i think is that god knows the best for us. And that's why i struggle to try and be good that way.

Well... i am sorry if i sounded too preachy. I am looking forward to hearing your answers ^^

Consider

Not sure you have a complete grasp on Christian doctrine, but you get the jest of it. Understanding the incarnation and atonement theory, establishment of the triune concept, and various other tenets of the Christian delusion is necessary before discussing it. Let me know if you need that.

Atheists don't say the god of OT is evil because atheists don't believe in god.....any of the over 4500 gods...all created by man, in our own image. But just to entertain your point...positing god was this or that in relation to sin or his discontent with man lacks understanding of some key issues. The anthropocentric belief in the Abrahamic based god of xtianity/Judaism/Islam is based on it being omniscient, and that means all knowing, so when this mythical god allegedly created at least 400+ billion planets (that is how many the hubble telescope can see) until it got at least one juuuuust right, then grabbed a handful of dirt and blew into it, creating man...then created all the goodies including the garden of eden and the tree of knowledge.....he KNEW from the first moment of creation what man would do. Like any parent who knows if you tell your kids don't go in my room, the moment you are gone where are they? In your room.

He KNEW eve would eat the forbidden fruit, and the creation of original sin would occur. He "demands payment of any sin" and ...big surprise...man can't pay it, so he sliced off some holy ghost, and implanted it via an angel into an alleged virgin, so he could have a half god/man born who could live the perfect life and then offer himself as the sacrifice to pay for man's sin...and the incarnation and atonement became a reality. So, god knowingly created sin via entrapment, then demanded atonement to satisfy himself, so he then sacrificed part of himself, to appease himself of a sin that he knew would happen in the first place...all so billions of humans can spend their lives groveling before him begging forgiveness ...seems a bit narcissistic. All of that is philosophical musings based on belief in a transcendental world, and lacking any evidence. But it IS a great story, once you throw in a few dragons.

That is it in a nutshell in layman's terms. If you would like them in academic terms click here:

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid674774



Let me know if you have any lingering questions, I can get as deep as you like.

Smartass

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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23-11-2015, 12:17 PM
RE: Atheism: Ignorance on "the old and new covenant"
(23-11-2015 12:15 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(23-11-2015 11:58 AM)Keiya Wrote:  Ah yes. Sheol if i recall. Well Satan was an adversary. But i see where you are going Smile

Satan was the "deceiver", and the origins of satan came from Babylonian myths. There was no heaven and no hell. Sheol was NOT where Yahweh lived.
Satan was not an "adversary". That's simply Fundie ignorance of Hebrew literature.

Psalm 39 :
"Turn your gaze away from me, that I may smile again,
before I depart, and am no more"

Psalm 115 :
The dead do not praise the Lord,
nor do any that go down into silence".

However ALL the dead, both good and bad, were thought to go to an underground region called "Sheol". And Sheol is referenced in mostly the Wisdom texts. It's certainly NOT where God lives.
Psalm 6 : "For in death there is no remembrance of you, in Sheol, who can give you praise ?"

Christianity cooked up heaven and hell, to scare people. It makes no sense AT ALL. It's not Biblical.
Satan (Hebrew: שָּׂטָן satan, meaning "adversary"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satan
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23-11-2015, 12:21 PM
RE: Atheism: Ignorance on "the old and new covenant"
(23-11-2015 12:12 PM)Keiya Wrote:  
(23-11-2015 12:05 PM)jennybee Wrote:  What would you classify as a psychological trauma? Getting raped by your husband's son by God's command like in the Book of Samuel? Having your first born being murdered at the hands of God as was done in Exodus? Asking you to sacrifice your son to prove your love for God as was done to Abraham? Having your daughter stoned to death for not having the appearance of virginity on her wedding night?
I dont remember that part in Samuel? What verse? I know the part where a brother raped a sister or something in terms of David getting furious about it. I am bad with names i know Tongue

What i mean is lets say "online blackmailing... if someone records you and blackmails you if you are ignorant and masturbates or send nude photos". Just to mention some psychological dillemmas of shame.

2 Samuel 12:11 " Thus says the Lord: I will bring evil upon you out of your own house. I will take your wives before your very eyes, and will give them to your neighbor: he shall lie with your wives in broad daylight." If you read further neighbor was his son. God also kills David's baby in this section. This was all done because *David* sinned against God.

I would rather get blackmailed for nude pics than get stoned to death for a variety of things like they did in the OT. Wink
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23-11-2015, 12:23 PM
RE: Atheism: Ignorance on "the old and new covenant"
(23-11-2015 12:16 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  Not sure you have a complete grasp on Christian doctrine, but you get the jest of it.
Smartass

Laughat

<snort>

You did that on purpose, didn't you?

We have enough youth. How about looking for the Fountain of Smart?
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