Atheism: Ignorance on "the old and new covenant"
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23-11-2015, 12:23 PM (This post was last modified: 23-11-2015 12:29 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Atheism: Ignorance on "the old and new covenant"
(23-11-2015 12:17 PM)Keiya Wrote:  
(23-11-2015 12:15 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Satan was the "deceiver", and the origins of satan came from Babylonian myths. There was no heaven and no hell. Sheol was NOT where Yahweh lived.
Satan was not an "adversary". That's simply Fundie ignorance of Hebrew literature.

Psalm 39 :
"Turn your gaze away from me, that I may smile again,
before I depart, and am no more"

Psalm 115 :
The dead do not praise the Lord,
nor do any that go down into silence".

However ALL the dead, both good and bad, were thought to go to an underground region called "Sheol". And Sheol is referenced in mostly the Wisdom texts. It's certainly NOT where God lives.
Psalm 6 : "For in death there is no remembrance of you, in Sheol, who can give you praise ?"

Christianity cooked up heaven and hell, to scare people. It makes no sense AT ALL. It's not Biblical.
Satan (Hebrew: שָּׂטָן satan, meaning "adversary"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satan

Read "The Origins of Satan" .. Dr. Elaine Pagels, Princeton University.
In the SAME WIki you post "who brings evil and temptation, and is known as the deceiver who leads humanity astray. Satan came from Babylon's myth system. That's how it GOT in the Bible. They imported a LOT of their mythology, from Babylon.

Grow up, and get a clue. There are no invisibkle beings.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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23-11-2015, 12:26 PM
RE: Atheism: Ignorance on "the old and new covenant"
(23-11-2015 11:06 AM)Keiya Wrote:  ........ which jesus speaks about.

Mhmmm

Let me give you a small nugget of knowledge; no one who EVER wrote of jesus knew him...no one. Thus we don't know what this self professed messiah, a false messiah if you read the prophesy, said about anything. Of course saying false messiah is an oxymoronic phrase as there is no such thing as a messiah, prophet etc...BUT...if we entertain the prophesy, jesus was a false messiah.

The Bible claims that Jesus made the following comment:

Matthew 16:28

“Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”

Jesus also advised against going to court over someone who steals something and also told people not to store up stocks or reserves for the future. Clearly, he thought the end was very near.

Likewise, Paul advised followers not to marry and that the end time was near. In this scripture he obviously believes that some of the people he is talking to will still be alive at the second coming.

I Thessalonians 4: 16-18

“For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.”

The obvious fact is that the second coming was not forthcoming at that time, or even close to being near. The 2000-year delay is a strong piece of evidence that Christianity is a failed religion.

The following quote from Stephen L. Harris, Professor Emeritus of Humanities and Religious Studies at California State University- Sacramento, completes this point with a devastating argument. Remember that Jesus was a Jew who had no intention to deviate from the Hebrew scriptures:

“Jesus did not accomplish what Israel’s prophets said the Messiah was commissioned to do: He did not deliver the covenant people from their Gentile enemies, reassemble those scattered in the Diaspora, restore the Davidic kingdom, or establish universal peace (cf.Isa. 9:6–7; 11:7–12:16, etc.). Instead of freeing Jews from oppressors and thereby fulfilling God’s ancient promises—for land, nationhood, kingship, and blessing—Jesus died a “shameful” death, defeated by the very political powers the Messiah was prophesied to overcome. Indeed, the Hebrew prophets did not foresee that Israel’s savior would be executed as a common criminal by Gentiles, making Jesus’ crucifixion a “stumbling block” to scripturally literate Jews. (1 Cor.1:23)”

Jesus’ immediate followers, mostly his 12 disciples, probably did not immediately identify this failure, because after Jesus’ body was likely stolen and concealed, a rumor spread that Jesus had been resurrected from the dead. A sense of optimism overcame their grief about his execution and renewed some hope that he was a true messiah. If they had known then that there was to be no return in the near or long-term future, they likely would have abandoned any further activity. Despite this resurgence in their faith, they never agreed with Paul’s concept of Jesus as being divine. Anything written in the Bible to suggest that they did is probably a result of later editing by some of Paul’s followers. Such a belief would have been an exceptional departure from the Jewish faith.

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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23-11-2015, 12:27 PM
RE: Atheism: Ignorance on "the old and new covenant"
(23-11-2015 12:23 PM)Thinkerbelle Wrote:  
(23-11-2015 12:16 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  Not sure you have a complete grasp on Christian doctrine, but you get the jest of it.
Smartass

Laughat

<snort>

You did that on purpose, didn't you?

Big Grin

I am fluent in intellectual sarcasm Drooling

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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23-11-2015, 12:29 PM
RE: Atheism: Ignorance on "the old and new covenant"
(23-11-2015 08:51 AM)Keiya Wrote:  Not saying this to be insulting. But, i usually hear on the internet. Usually from atheists saying "Wow can you believe what the old testament says?" usually with the

"Marrying daughter who is virgin when raped and have to pay 30 sekels or something to father"

"Mauling children, bear does it because kids called a guy baldy"

"Drowning people for not doing what god wants them to do"

If there is stuff i haven't mentioned that you don't like then feel free to add them too.
But basically. The thing is Jesus is the new covenant that Christians follow. Does this makes the old covenant invalid, nope. Absolutely not. But here is the keyrole. If you want to keep the jewish laws "Basically you become jew" then you have to obey every law. Jesus is what christians follow, and that you pray and believe in him. Which is the symbolic idea of crucifixion. Is that in the book of moses, usually called with 5 different names like exoddus, leviticus etc. It is talking about how to please Yahweh your god. And that is usually animal sacrifices, the blood was symbolic in that case as it cleansed sin, atleast from what i remember from reading about it. So the idea that Jesus is the ultimate sacrifice so that anyone who follows him will go to heaven. Is the ideal. You may think "Where does Jesus say that"

Its hinted lots of times.
Jesus says his sins will be a ransom for many. (Which leads to the ultimate sacrifice)
Mark 10:45

And here Jesus says he is god. Ok, this doesnt make any sense by itself... but
Mark 14:62

If you add Daniel in context to what he says
Daniel 7:13-14
Then he clearly says he is.

So Paul wasn't just fooling around. He knew exactly what Jesus was talking about.

Now ok then. I got the theology. Atheists will say God is evil in the old. And they may think so. But if we lets say "morale is subjective" then wouldn't that mean that i can say "Well i think cheating on my wife is morale?" i mean the reason why god is so wrathful and angry in the old is to give a theological point. He hates what we do. And thats why he does the thing he does. Like cursing is not something god likes. Marrying someone and keep the law is more or less a punishment if you think about it. But the idea is to obey god and keep his laws. Now Jesus was sent so that all could have his grace and be saved by faith, and not by condemnation.

Well i have probably not covered all. But i hope this gives a little insight into the religion

What i think is that god knows the best for us. And that's why i struggle to try and be good that way.

Well... i am sorry if i sounded too preachy. I am looking forward to hearing your answers ^^

Jesus is also quoted as telling everyone that they too are Gods. and it says so in other languages of the Bible and cannot be construed as meaning that we are God's. Check that out if you wish.
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23-11-2015, 12:29 PM
RE: Atheism: Ignorance on "the old and new covenant"
(23-11-2015 08:51 AM)Keiya Wrote:  Not saying this to be insulting. But, i usually hear on the internet. Usually from atheists saying "Wow can you believe what the old testament says?"
...
The thing is Jesus is the new covenant that Christians follow. Does this makes the old covenant invalid, nope. Absolutely not. But here is the keyrole. If you want to keep the jewish laws "Basically you become jew" then you have to obey every law. Jesus is what christians follow, and that you pray and believe in him.
...
Atheists will say God is evil in the old. And they may think so.

The thing is, there's no reason we can't evaluate YHWH's actions, regardless of if he decided to send Jesus at some later date. You can talk about Christ's sacrifice, but that's a complete and utter non sequitur to the children YHWH drowned in Genesis. We can call YHWH evil for drowning children when he had literally an infinite number of options available to him. Your answer is a red herring; it's a bait and switch to shield God from scrutiny.


Also, a side note: I wouldn't say that the evil stopped in the New Testament. At least back in the Old Testament, if you made God angry, all he'd (allegedly) do is kill you. Once Jesus came along, he upped the ante with eternal torture. The Jews didn't (and don't) believe in hell. I'd say infinite torture for finite crimes is far worse than anything YHWH or his followers pulled off in the Old Testament. Heck, as much as I'd hate to be have me and my wife be killed and to have my virgin daughters taken as sex slave... at least that would end.


(23-11-2015 08:51 AM)Keiya Wrote:  Well... i am sorry if i sounded too preachy. I am looking forward to hearing your answers ^^

Alternate hypothesis: Christianity is a different religion that piggy-backs on Judaism. Over time, people found the events in the Old Testament distasteful and came up with ad hoc excuses to hand wave them away.
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23-11-2015, 12:30 PM
RE: Atheism: Ignorance on "the old and new covenant"
(23-11-2015 12:21 PM)jennybee Wrote:  
(23-11-2015 12:12 PM)Keiya Wrote:  I dont remember that part in Samuel? What verse? I know the part where a brother raped a sister or something in terms of David getting furious about it. I am bad with names i know Tongue

What i mean is lets say "online blackmailing... if someone records you and blackmails you if you are ignorant and masturbates or send nude photos". Just to mention some psychological dillemmas of shame.

2 Samuel 12:11 " Thus says the Lord: I will bring evil upon you out of your own house. I will take your wives before your very eyes, and will give them to your neighbor: he shall lie with your wives in broad daylight." If you read further neighbor was his son. God also kills David's baby in this section. This was all done because *David* sinned against God.

I would rather get blackmailed for nude pics than get stoned to death for a variety of things like they did in the OT. Wink

You mean people who live next door? Wives from your household to...

NIV translation
“This is what the Lord says: ‘Out of your own household I am going to bring calamity on you. Before your very eyes I will take your wives and give them to one who is close to you, and he will sleep with your wives in broad daylight

KJV
1 Thus saith the Lord, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun.

Its to serve a theological point. David was supposed to be rightoues, but he sinned in god's eyes. This is to show the consequences of doing evil.

Atleast how i see it.

Edit:
Quote: The obvious fact is that the second coming was not forthcoming at that time, or even close to being near. The 2000-year delay is a strong piece of evidence that Christianity is a failed religion.
This was one of the things i mentioned i think, that it came to massive scepticism. Its not impossible to think this... some will say.. well "The kingdom of god" is within you. But i wont discredit your doubt. Because this was the reason why i was so sceptical in the first place. The idea that this generation from my knowledge in old testament ment about 40 years from now.
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23-11-2015, 12:32 PM
RE: Atheism: Ignorance on "the old and new covenant"
(23-11-2015 10:39 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(23-11-2015 08:51 AM)Keiya Wrote:  Not saying this to be insulting. But, i usually hear on the internet. Usually from atheists saying "Wow can you believe what the old testament says?" usually with the

"Marrying daughter who is virgin when raped and have to pay 30 sekels or something to father"

"Mauling children, bear does it because kids called a guy baldy"

"Drowning people for not doing what god wants them to do"

If there is stuff i haven't mentioned that you don't like then feel free to add them too.
But basically. The thing is Jesus is the new covenant that Christians follow. Does this makes the old covenant invalid, nope. Absolutely not. But here is the keyrole. If you want to keep the jewish laws "Basically you become jew" then you have to obey every law. Jesus is what christians follow, and that you pray and believe in him. Which is the symbolic idea of crucifixion. Is that in the book of moses, usually called with 5 different names like exoddus, leviticus etc. It is talking about how to please Yahweh your god. And that is usually animal sacrifices, the blood was symbolic in that case as it cleansed sin, atleast from what i remember from reading about it. So the idea that Jesus is the ultimate sacrifice so that anyone who follows him will go to heaven. Is the ideal. You may think "Where does Jesus say that"

Its hinted lots of times.
Jesus says his sins will be a ransom for many. (Which leads to the ultimate sacrifice)
Mark 10:45

And here Jesus says he is god. Ok, this doesnt make any sense by itself... but
Mark 14:62

If you add Daniel in context to what he says
Daniel 7:13-14
Then he clearly says he is.

So Paul wasn't just fooling around. He knew exactly what Jesus was talking about.

Now ok then. I got the theology. Atheists will say God is evil in the old. And they may think so. But if we lets say "morale is subjective" then wouldn't that mean that i can say "Well i think cheating on my wife is morale?" i mean the reason why god is so wrathful and angry in the old is to give a theological point. He hates what we do. And thats why he does the thing he does. Like cursing is not something god likes. Marrying someone and keep the law is more or less a punishment if you think about it. But the idea is to obey god and keep his laws. Now Jesus was sent so that all could have his grace and be saved by faith, and not by condemnation.

Well i have probably not covered all. But i hope this gives a little insight into the religion

What i think is that god knows the best for us. And that's why i struggle to try and be good that way.

Well... i am sorry if i sounded too preachy. I am looking forward to hearing your answers ^^

Really. God knows what's best for us ?
Like it's "best for us" that MILLIONS of innocent babies starved this year ?
Are you on drugs ?

And you totally wrong about the Covenants. There was only one.
Genesis 9:12 "And God said, “This is the sign of the covenant I am making between me and you and every living creature with you, a covenant for all generations to come.

Now either your god is a damn liar, or he isn't.

Jesus does not agree with you, and neither does St. Paul.

Matthew 5:17-18
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished."

Earth has not "disappeared", as far as I can see.

Not only is the law still in place, but you as a woman need to be quiet.
1 Corinthians 14:34
"Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says."

He says nothing about a "new law". He says the law in still in place.

Have a nice (quiet) day.

Tongue

I like the wording in the KJV:
"For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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23-11-2015, 12:38 PM
RE: Atheism: Ignorance on "the old and new covenant"
(23-11-2015 11:30 AM)Reltzik Wrote:  
(23-11-2015 11:25 AM)jennybee Wrote:  I want a heaven filled with shoes Tongue

.... wait, with shoes?

Yes, your sole would be one with the upper realms and your tongue would speak only to God's holiness and be heeled of all the transgressions in which you've mistread, but in the back of your head wouldn't the whole enterprise buckle under the realization that the whole system was cobbled-together and really rather shoddy?

I'm not sure you're going to last here, you sneaker. So don't be causing any spats.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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23-11-2015, 12:41 PM
RE: Atheism: Ignorance on "the old and new covenant"
(23-11-2015 11:39 AM)Keiya Wrote:  I had no way of disproving it. So i just came to believe in it.

Can you disprove pixies or faeries or trolls? Consider

Your reasoning is childish. Drinking Beverage

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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23-11-2015, 12:42 PM
RE: Atheism: Ignorance on "the old and new covenant"
(23-11-2015 11:54 AM)Keiya Wrote:  But also because my life is better and rewards me because of the belief.

How so? Be specific. Drinking Beverage

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