Atheism Plus; do many subscribe to this movement?
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22-06-2015, 11:01 AM
RE: Atheism Plus; do many subscribe to this movement?
I practiced the whole "socially liberal by fiscally conservative" trope for a while, until I realized the unrealistic expectations I have for people in a society.

http://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politic...beral-dont

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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22-06-2015, 11:01 AM
RE: Atheism Plus; do many subscribe to this movement?
@TheBeardedDude

«Which seems to be a rather childish solution to what is perceived as a problem (inefficient government). "It looks broken, let's just get rid of it instead of fixing it."

Might work on a small scale (a household could work like that where there is no central control), but a world (or a country or a state) where there is no central government, sounds like a world I wouldn't want to live in. Too many stupid and/or greedy people. It sounds, feudal.»

I agree with you on that point. Libertarianism offers no protection against the less cooperative and respectful side of our nature. I only meant to correct a factual error when it came to the economical perspective of this ideologie.
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22-06-2015, 11:03 AM
RE: Atheism Plus; do many subscribe to this movement?
"I agree with you on that point. Libertarianism offers no protection against the less cooperative and respectful side of our nature. I only meant to correct a factual error when it came to the economical perspective of this ideologie."

No worries. Just pointing out that either version (left or right) of Libertarianism pushes for individuals controlling how society operates, but not through government. If not through government, then through individual choice and consumption. That would create a chaotic and fragmented system of rampant inequality.

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22-06-2015, 11:06 AM
RE: Atheism Plus; do many subscribe to this movement?
I realized Libertarianism wasn't for me once I looked more closely at it. I picked up this book by Penn Jillette and liked the first half for the most part (most of his atheistic points), but found the last half to be incredibly naive and idealistic and not realistic (the part outlining his Libertarian views).

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22-06-2015, 11:21 AM
RE: Atheism Plus; do many subscribe to this movement?
Ok. So some are saying libertarianism supports the idea of zero government. I would have called that anarchy.
But I have a question that's been kicking around in my head for a while.
I don't know if a country without a governing body could work or not so I won't make any assertions.
Here's the problem I have. I think most of us would agree that a person can be good without gods. I know right from wrong so I don't need some invisible dude telling me not to kill. I don't need god to control my behaviour. Isn't believing that we need government to control behaviour kinda the same thing? Unless many theist would rape and murder if you could convince them there's no god. I dunno. Any perspective?
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22-06-2015, 11:23 AM
RE: Atheism Plus; do many subscribe to this movement?
(22-06-2015 11:21 AM)Drunkin Druid Wrote:  Ok. So some are saying libertarianism supports the idea of zero government. I would have called that anarchy.
But I have a question that's been kicking around in my head for a while.
I don't know if a country without a governing body could work or not so I won't make any assertions.
Here's the problem I have. I think most of us would agree that a person can be good without gods. I know right from wrong so I don't need some invisible dude telling me not to kill. I don't need god to control my behaviour. Isn't believing that we need government to control behaviour kinda the same thing? Unless many theist would rape and murder if you could convince them there's no god. I dunno. Any perspective?

Some people do need to be told what is and isn't okay. And corporations act in the interest of profit, not morality. So, what would stop a corporation from exploiting the environment and the workers to maximize profit? At that scale, workers are numbers on a spreadsheet, there is no real humanity in managing profit.

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22-06-2015, 11:25 AM
RE: Atheism Plus; do many subscribe to this movement?
(22-06-2015 11:23 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(22-06-2015 11:21 AM)Drunkin Druid Wrote:  Ok. So some are saying libertarianism supports the idea of zero government. I would have called that anarchy.
But I have a question that's been kicking around in my head for a while.
I don't know if a country without a governing body could work or not so I won't make any assertions.
Here's the problem I have. I think most of us would agree that a person can be good without gods. I know right from wrong so I don't need some invisible dude telling me not to kill. I don't need god to control my behaviour. Isn't believing that we need government to control behaviour kinda the same thing? Unless many theist would rape and murder if you could convince them there's no god. I dunno. Any perspective?

Some people do need to be told what is and isn't okay. And corporations act in the interest of profit, not morality. So, what would stop a corporation from exploiting the environment and the workers to maximize profit? At that scale, workers are numbers on a spreadsheet, there is no real humanity in managing profit.

And we have an abundance of evidence that this is exactly what they do.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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22-06-2015, 11:29 AM
RE: Atheism Plus; do many subscribe to this movement?
(22-06-2015 11:25 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(22-06-2015 11:23 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Some people do need to be told what is and isn't okay. And corporations act in the interest of profit, not morality. So, what would stop a corporation from exploiting the environment and the workers to maximize profit? At that scale, workers are numbers on a spreadsheet, there is no real humanity in managing profit.

And we have an abundance of evidence that this is exactly what they do.

I don't know if I am more scared of Tim the Murdering Theist, or if I am more worried about the long term effects of Mike the Mechanic dumping oil out back or Dan the Dry Cleaner pouring the chemicals down the drain, etc.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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22-06-2015, 11:40 AM
RE: Atheism Plus; do many subscribe to this movement?
I've heard of Atheism+ ... mostly from this forum. I think I followed someone's link and lurked on one of their boards or forums. They appeared to cling to dogma as some sort of combat strategy. Too convoluted for me.

I'm atheist - life long. Supporting others trying to find their way out of insanity and into reality is about as militant as I get. Consider Until someone mentions indoctrination of children ... then ... I just might go full on, hardcore dogma slayer, with all Hitchens blazing.

Godless don't need no +. That's how I roll. Shy

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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22-06-2015, 11:45 AM
RE: Atheism Plus; do many subscribe to this movement?
(22-06-2015 11:21 AM)Drunkin Druid Wrote:  Ok. So some are saying libertarianism supports the idea of zero government. I would have called that anarchy.
But I have a question that's been kicking around in my head for a while.
I don't know if a country without a governing body could work or not so I won't make any assertions.
Here's the problem I have. I think most of us would agree that a person can be good without gods. I know right from wrong so I don't need some invisible dude telling me not to kill. I don't need god to control my behaviour. Isn't believing that we need government to control behaviour kinda the same thing? Unless many theist would rape and murder if you could convince them there's no god. I dunno. Any perspective?

You seem to be confused by what a government actually is or at least you are using to different usages of the word at the same time. In a democratic state, or at least in a democratic inspired state, the government is nothing more than the institution that serves to enforce and structure the collective decisions of a majority of the members of the society as to how it should work and how should we all agree to behave with one another. It's what Rousseau called «le contrat social» (the social contract). When we say a government is necessary to build an organised society it's not because the government has moral authority over us. The government is simply enforcing the rules/laws we have decided for ourselves. It's a way to deal with the small minority who would break the «social contract» for their own gain despite the fact that it may cause arm to others or to the collective. Most people will never face law enforcement agents, but some do and for very good reason. Libertarianism offers no solution do deal with individuals or even groups of individuals that would cause arm for their own profit. It also offers no solution to glaring problems like the oppression of a small group by a tyrannical majority. It also undermine the greatest tool for human advancement: cooperation in large groups. History so far has demonstrated that human happiness, prosperity and cohesion can only be found with a careful balance between individual freedom, collective boundaries, minority protection, wealth redistribution and supple justice and governance system.
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