Atheism Plus; do many subscribe to this movement?
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22-06-2015, 07:35 PM
RE: Atheism Plus; do many subscribe to this movement?
(22-06-2015 07:33 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  
(22-06-2015 07:14 PM)epronovost Wrote:  If you think the private sector can't quash dissent like a government does, you are unfamiliar with some of the dark corner of our history.

If you think the powers of law is in the hands of the private sector, you need a civics lesson. Can a company put you in prison?

That was my point. I hope that clarifies it for you.

Yes they can and have in places that allow them to.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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22-06-2015, 07:37 PM
RE: Atheism Plus; do many subscribe to this movement?
(22-06-2015 07:31 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  
(22-06-2015 06:51 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  I have no idea what you mean by this. The public sector is made up of private individuals appointed by others through election to regulate themselves and the private sector.

You forgot to mention one element of the equation, which is the law. Assigning broad powers to government, which can back up those powers with actions like incarceration, or extended regulation, or property seizures lacking court review ... well, you're a nice, trusting individual, I suppose.

Assuming that government employees don't have venial impulses, and wouldn't use powers vested in them to pursue those impulses, seems a touch quaint to me.

By splitting up some of that power and vesting it into private hands, we might be able to form a counterbalance to the silicon fist that hovers over our heads nowadays.

(22-06-2015 06:51 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  The only rampant opportunity I see available through the reduction of government is the exploitation of the people and the environment by corporations and the 1%.

Which prompts the question, is that because that is the only opportunity available, or the only one your filters let into your thought processes?

You seem to think I'm a libertarian purist; I am not. There is room for a reasonable discussion here, but I'm not an ideologue, and I won't entertain one, either. I'll let you tell me what sort of interaction you desire.

You have the option of removing elected officials from office, you (average Joe Blow) do not have any control over what private corporations do or who they employ or how they operate. Especially in a world of lowered regulations where the companies and private sectors are free to do what they want.


"Which prompts the question, is that because that is the only opportunity available, or the only one your filters let into your thought processes?"

Because people are greedy and we see how people and the environment is exploited in countries where regulation is minimal and the rich have even more control than they do here in the U.S.

"well, you're a nice, trusting individual, I suppose."

It is precisely my distrust of the average person and their innate greed and self-preservationist attitude that gives me reason to think that libertarian principles are naive and short-sighted.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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22-06-2015, 07:37 PM
RE: Atheism Plus; do many subscribe to this movement?
(22-06-2015 07:35 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(22-06-2015 07:33 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  If you think the powers of law is in the hands of the private sector, you need a civics lesson. Can a company put you in prison?

That was my point. I hope that clarifies it for you.

Yes they can and have in places that allow them to.


(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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22-06-2015, 07:38 PM (This post was last modified: 22-06-2015 07:41 PM by Plan 9 from OS.)
RE: Atheism Plus; do many subscribe to this movement?
(22-06-2015 06:05 PM)epronovost Wrote:  @Plan 9 from OS

You forgot Montesquieu. You owe him the idea of the separation of the legislative, executive and judiciary powers as well as the separation of state and church. Has for your political position, you do qualify to be a libertarian if you would like to wear that label. It would make more of a minarchist than an anarchist amongst their ranks so you could be consider a «soft» libertarian. I would agree that it defines well your political positions and despite the fact that as a «soft» socialist we wouldn't agree on many points, we do share some points in common.

Yes. Thank you. I've heard the name before but I'll admit I know very little about him, which is kinda embarrassing. I have more reading to do! Soft libertarian is probably a good description of my views.
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22-06-2015, 09:11 PM
RE: Atheism Plus; do many subscribe to this movement?
(22-06-2015 07:35 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(22-06-2015 07:33 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  If you think the powers of law is in the hands of the private sector, you need a civics lesson. Can a company put you in prison?

That was my point. I hope that clarifies it for you.

Yes they can and have in places that allow them to.

Perhaps you'd be so kind as to link to supporting material?
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22-06-2015, 09:19 PM
RE: Atheism Plus; do many subscribe to this movement?
(22-06-2015 07:38 PM)Plan 9 from OS Wrote:  You forgot Montesquieu.

Yeah I hated him.
Oh wait. That was Bartesque. http://thenancydrewproject.blogspot.com/

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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22-06-2015, 09:25 PM
RE: Atheism Plus; do many subscribe to this movement?
(22-06-2015 07:37 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  You have the option of removing elected officials from office, you (average Joe Blow) do not have any control over what private corporations do or who they employ or how they operate. Especially in a world of lowered regulations where the companies and private sectors are free to do what they want.

You're forgetting the fact that companies are beholden to income. The market is itself a stern regulator. Look at what happened to BP after the gulf spill.

Money talks, bullshit walks, and that is the Golden Rule in the corporate boardroom.


(22-06-2015 07:37 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
Thump Wrote:"Which prompts the question, is that because that is the only opportunity available, or the only one your filters let into your thought processes?"

Because people are greedy and we see how people and the environment is exploited in countries where regulation is minimal and the rich have even more control than they do here in the U.S.

Which is not an answer to my question.


(22-06-2015 07:37 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  "well, you're a nice, trusting individual, I suppose."

It is precisely my distrust of the average person and their innate greed and self-preservationist attitude that gives me reason to think that libertarian principles are naive and short-sighted.

... and it is precisely your misunderstanding, or incomprehension, I'm not sure, of statistics, which leads you to this point. Because the greed of individuals doesn't always pull in the same direction. You seem to think that your limited personal experience spells out the map of human interactions, when history demonstrates otherwise.

You distrust people. Great. So do I. But the difference between you and I is that you think government is the place where people aren't people, but rather good loyal honest [i]civil servants, while I understand that they are still people, but they have the power of law backing their veniality.

It's cute, you calling me "naive" even as you expostulate that people abandon human nature simply because they're on a government payroll. Do you really need me to list government corruption scandals? Do you really need me to list abuses of power?

Do you really need me to lift that rock off of you?
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23-06-2015, 07:38 AM
Atheism Plus; do many subscribe to this movement?
(22-06-2015 09:25 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  
(22-06-2015 07:37 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  You have the option of removing elected officials from office, you (average Joe Blow) do not have any control over what private corporations do or who they employ or how they operate. Especially in a world of lowered regulations where the companies and private sectors are free to do what they want.

You're forgetting the fact that companies are beholden to income. The market is itself a stern regulator. Look at what happened to BP after the gulf spill.

Money talks, bullshit walks, and that is the Golden Rule in the corporate boardroom.


(22-06-2015 07:37 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Because people are greedy and we see how people and the environment is exploited in countries where regulation is minimal and the rich have even more control than they do here in the U.S.

Which is not an answer to my question.


(22-06-2015 07:37 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  "well, you're a nice, trusting individual, I suppose."

It is precisely my distrust of the average person and their innate greed and self-preservationist attitude that gives me reason to think that libertarian principles are naive and short-sighted.

... and it is precisely your misunderstanding, or incomprehension, I'm not sure, of statistics, which leads you to this point. Because the greed of individuals doesn't always pull in the same direction. You seem to think that your limited personal experience spells out the map of human interactions, when history demonstrates otherwise.

You distrust people. Great. So do I. But the difference between you and I is that you think government is the place where people aren't people, but rather good loyal honest civil servants, while I understand that they are still people, but they have the power of law backing their veniality.

It's cute, you calling me "naive" even as you expostulate that people abandon human nature simply because they're on a government payroll. Do you really need me to list government corruption scandals? Do you really need me to list abuses of power?

Do you really need me to lift that rock off of you?

Tone down the douchebag comments.

Companies are beholden to profit, which only makes them more likely to be make moves to maximize profit. Look at any country with less stringent regulations and then look at the damage to the workers and environments. Profit maximization encourages corruption.

Which makes it funny you mention government corruption, which also tends to be money driven when unethical people are elected. At least government has a vetting process to remove these unethical profit maximizing government officials. Companies reward that kind of behavior.

Your straw man about me somehow misunderstanding statistics to not like libertarian bs is completely out of right field. I don't buy into libertarian ideals because not once have I seen any place where it seems to work. A society of people who govern themselves, is still a government. Libertarians want more capitalist-driven control where government is smaller. If we look at our own past, companies tend to do everything they can to screw people over and there is nothing the average person can do about that. But the average voter can expel government corruption.

I grew up in rural Tennessee and currently live in Connecticut. If libertarian utopia were to take place, Connecticut would be "fine" in some areas because of all the money, corporations, population, and proximity to major urban areas. (It'd be fine in the sense that not everyone would be screwed). But my native town in Tennessee would be screwed. It's one of the largest counties in Tennessee, yet one of the poorer ones too. What happens to the roads? What happens to police and fire departments (including volunteer fire departments)? What happens to the few parks? The few people with any money in that area, are only going to take care of their roads and the things they care about. Everyone else just gets to live near them and hope to catch the scraps off their plate.

Libertarianism is a greed-driven egocentric hyper-capitalist naive Ayn Randish Utopia. It focuses on saying that government doesn't always work well, but corporations somehow do, so let them have more control. Corporations aren't people, and corporations don't have any humanity. And the upper management don't care about their employs like libertarians like to think, because otherwise, they'd be terrible managers.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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23-06-2015, 07:45 AM
Atheism Plus; do many subscribe to this movement?
And make no mistake, I'm not saying governments are perfect either. Anything where humans are involved is not going to be perfect. But government allows people to govern themselves where everyone has equal say through voting. Corporations cater to those with the most money because they spend more. If you're poor, no company will give a shit about you. And I think it's pretty clear if you watch or listen to any conservative news outlet that a lot of people don't give a shit about the poor around them. If you reduce government under the impression that people and corporations will pick up the slack and take care of the infrastructure and people around them, you're naive and must be ignoring quite literally everything that is happening in the world.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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