Atheism VS. Agnosticism
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12-05-2012, 04:49 AM
RE: Atheism VS. Agnosticism
I think a lot of people get mixed up between apathy and agnosticism. A lot of people just don't care and that translates to 'I don't know'. I think Neil deGrasse Tyson is an apathetic atheist. He's focussed on other things Tongue

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Take the risk of thinking for yourself, much more happiness, truth, beauty, and wisdom will come to you that way.


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12-05-2012, 06:22 AM
RE: Atheism VS. Agnosticism
Hey, Cantor.

Why I aughta <shakes fist Yosemite Sam-style>!

Oh, and as for the video from that woman.... dude.... I think I'm in love Cool

Hey, Seasbury.

BOOYAKASHA! RESPECT! NGT IN THA MUTHA FUCKIN HOUSE, BITCHES!





Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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12-05-2012, 06:25 AM
RE: Atheism VS. Agnosticism
I use the language of theist / atheist to mean "has a god" / "does not have a god". I treat it not as a statement of knowledge or even of ideology, but of relationship with or not having a relationship with a god creature. That's a pretty broad and inclusive way of defining things, and I guess has parallels in the emergence of "Christian" as an umbrella term for all of the competing Christian denominations - not as an idealogical term really but as a political term.

In the political arena if the right to nonbelief is to be protected an inclusive term for nonbelief is useful in order to quote statistics, to discuss policy, and to lobby.

To me the atheist movement as it stands today is really concerned with this political angle, and as with the various christian doctrinal rifts the ideological divisions within that sphere are less important than standing together and being counted as needing to be included in society. The atheist movement doesn't want or need to evangelise, but it does need to invigorate in order to defend secularism and inclusiveness of both belief and nonbelief within society. That is why I would describe myself primarily as an atheist and describe atheism in those broad terms. I also personally hold that lack of evidence after sustained attempts to find evidence counts as evidence, and so I personally also would make knowledge claims about whether particular gods exist. That's a personal ideology question within the broader scope of political atheism.

Where I live I would rarely hear someone describe themselves as an atheist. "Agnostic" is the PC term, and here it would commonly be used to describe either
1) Someone who honestly doesn't care about that religion crap and feels it has nothing to do with them, but doesn't want to offend anyone by saying their god does not exist and does not want to get into an argument that they may not be able to defend.
2) Someone who has honestly searched for a spiritual answer, but has found no compelling argument for any region or god
"Atheist" in the common vernacular would still tend to be taken as a statement that there is definitely no god anywhere.

At the political level I would like to claim these people as being on my side and potentially a base that could be invigorated to defend a secular society against religious overreach. I think "atheist" is a term that can be applied broadly enough to make this possible, while still being a term confronting enough to force both a decision and a level of acceptance for and understanding of the chosen position.

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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12-05-2012, 06:38 AM
RE: Atheism VS. Agnosticism
Hey Ghost.

U know I luf you Heart which ain't gonna stop me from giving you shit. Evil_monster

And yeah, Cristina Rad? Ouch. Big Grin

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13-05-2012, 12:32 AM
RE: Atheism VS. Agnosticism
When you sit on the fence you have room to move around; when you are tied to it there's not much moving.

Penn is unproductively playing around with semantics.

" Agnostics are gutless Atheists" Madalyn O'Hair former U.S atheist leader who was murdered....................
(no not for saying that!)
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13-05-2012, 03:12 AM
RE: Atheism VS. Agnosticism
God damn this forum pisses me off, I go to post something and somebody already just posted it...

Damn you Mr Woof!

I think Agnostics are Atheists whom don't want to fully commit to being an Atheist, sorta like if God suddenly appeared they can say they never didn't believe.
I think being 'Agnostic' is more of a social pressure thing. You ask the same person about invisible pink unicorns and they'll say no chance, why?, because it's socially accepted that pink invisible unicorns don't exist (they totally do, people don't know!). Ask the same about God and because so many people do believe it's a different story...

So I would agree with the quote that "agnostics are gutless atheists".

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13-05-2012, 05:31 AM (This post was last modified: 13-05-2012 05:48 AM by DeepThought.)
RE: Atheism VS. Agnosticism
Oh crap... Not this again. What till you hear about the Schrödinger's cat rubbish...

It boils down to this... piddly semantics and people arguing about dictionary definitions. Some atheists don't want to be identified as atheists so here is some mental backflips an viola... you have a new name for yourself.

I don't care what you call yourself. If you don't believe in god then I'm going to call you an atheist. You can be whatever you want in your own head.

Phew... Had to get that out of my system. Feel better now...

They really have nothing to do with each other anyway. One is about knowledge and the other is about belief. Belief is binary - you believe or don't believe. Your knowledge on said subject has nothing to do with belief.

Faith is belief without knowledge.
Things you don't know that you don't know are impossible to believe.
Things you know you know are things you believe.
Things you don't know you know are things you believe.
Things you know you don't know are things you don't believe. (unless you want to go by faith)

As soon as something happens that changes your knowledge on something then you can go from believing <---> not believing.

“Forget Jesus, the stars died so you could be born.” - Lawrence M. Krauss
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13-05-2012, 06:32 AM (This post was last modified: 13-05-2012 06:42 AM by houseofcantor.)
RE: Atheism VS. Agnosticism
(13-05-2012 05:31 AM)DeepThought Wrote:  I'm going to call you an atheist.

I'm going to call you a tuna fish sandwich. Tongue

You fucks are all too particulate. I'm waveform between the manufactured reef of Heart and the void. Agnosticism ain't worth mentioning unless you're agnostic. The way I figure it, "god" and "concept" are "human." I'm an atheist 'cause I kan see numbers. One is too much and Zero is everything else. God would have to be at least simultaneous between 1 and 0 and that's a short in the brainpan; anybody yammering about god don't know wtf they are talking about. Unless one is prophet, which is crazy, which no one knows what one is talking about.

Let's review. We're all atheists. Some of us just ain't embarrassed about it. Big Grin
(13-05-2012 03:12 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  Damn you Mr Woof!

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13-05-2012, 07:00 AM
RE: Atheism VS. Agnosticism
Hey, Earmuffs.

Quote:So I would agree with the quote that "agnostics are gutless atheists".

Well I'd agree that you're a poo poo ka ka pee pee face.

"Oh no he di-ih."
"Oh yes he did!"





You do realise that it's not cool to call an entire group of people gutless, right?

My desire isn't to not commit fully to Atheism, I don't commit to it at all Cool

Quote:I think being 'Agnostic' is more of a social pressure thing. You ask the
same person about invisible pink unicorns and they'll say no chance,
why?, because it's socially accepted that pink invisible unicorns don't
exist (they totally do, people don't know!). Ask the same about God and
because so many people do believe it's a different story...

That's all very presumptuous, but, to be fair, it's also not true Cool

I am AN Agnostic. I believe in demonstration. If something has been demonstrated, I believe it or I don't depending on the conclusion. If it hasn't, or if it's indemonstrable, then I reserve my judgement. No one (to my knowledge) has ever demonstrated that invisible pink unicorns exist, or that they do not exist; therefore, I don't know whether they do or not.

This is how I approach everything. Absolutely everything.

Flying Spaghetti Monster - Demonstrated. Created by Bobby Henderson in 2005. Doesn't exist.
Gravity - Demonstrated. Exists.
Life on Europa - Not demonstrated. Don't know.
God - Indemonstrable. Don't know.

It's not a social pressure thing (unless you're talking about psychosocial development, but I don't think that you are) it's a logic thing.

Deep Thought Wrote:Oh crap... Not this again. What till you hear about the Schrödinger's cat rubbish...

Hey, Deep Thought. How's it going? I see you're dismissing my deeply held beliefs. Calling them rubbish too. Great to hear from you.

Quote:It boils down to this... piddly semantics and people arguing about dictionary definitions.

No. It's about being who I am and about the social movement that is trying to deny my right to be who I am. Definition is intimately linked to power and when people tell you that you do not have the right to define yourself in the manner that you see fit, they are trying to exert power over you. I for one won't have it and I for one don't take kindly to the attempt. To call it piddly is to dismiss a very serious and very real fight for identity. Fortunately, the last 100 years have shown us that those that fight people's attempts to self-identify are always, without exception, on the wrong side of history.

Quote:Some atheists don't want to be identified as atheists so here is some
mental backflips an viola... you have a new name for yourself.

You are trying to co-opt an entire group of people that do not want to be co-opted by you. The very fact that you dismiss our personal vision of ourselves by calling us "Atheists" is insulting. I am capable of understanding who I am without your patriarchal intervention. It is only mental backflips if one feels that we Agnostics are trying to break the rigid construct that you yourself hold. But we're not. Your construct is your construct and we want nothing to do with it. We have our own. We have not mentally backflipped, we have taken a stand and it is you and those like you who are panicking because you feel that you have somehow lost control of us because we have rebelled and broken your precious social order. We aren't yours to control, neither are we yours to define. We are our own people and we do not need anyone's permission to be so.

Quote:I don't care what you call yourself. If you don't believe in god then I'm going to call you an atheist. You can be whatever you want in your own head.

Let me be blunt about something. The attempt to absorb Agnostics into the fold of Atheism is only different from the Christianisation of Europe in two ways.
1 - The Catholic church was more organised than Atheists are.
2 - The Catholic church had more resources than Atheists have.
Beyond those two differences, they are IDENTICAL.

Atheists need to ask themselves. Is this what they want to be? Or is this what they themselves are trying to escape?





We are not yours to have. The conflict between Atheists and Agnostics will continue until Atheists recognise that fact.





Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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13-05-2012, 07:08 AM
RE: Atheism VS. Agnosticism
Atheists seem to be working very hard lately to get away from a title that has a very negative connotation. I remember an acquaintance once saying when I told him I was an Atheist, "So you worship Satan." Yes obviously ignorant but I think this is what the word Atheist congers up in believers, evil people against God. Agnostic is just a way for us to say we don't believe in God without sounding like evil people. I am an Atheist as are all those people calling themselves Agnostics.

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I wasn't . . . until I was
I am . . . until I'm not
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