Atheism VS. Agnosticism
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15-05-2012, 09:24 AM
RE: Atheism VS. Agnosticism
Now what a minute, Ghost. How is pre-supposing the existence of the supernatural not a gnostic consideration? And how is it not demonstrable that every god concept comes outta a work of fiction? And another thing: Tongue

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15-05-2012, 09:30 AM
RE: Atheism VS. Agnosticism
TL;DR the thread, but I'm often interested in Ghost's point of view so here I am.

I understand the defined differences between Agnosticism and Atheism and am not interested in debating the minutia as some are. I look for the easy route whenever possible. My assertion is that Agnostics are no different from Atheists in the way they carry out their lives without a faith in the supernatural. Neither group is guided by belief that Jesus wants them to give up pornography or kissing the gays or gay pornography for that matter. So with that in mind,


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15-05-2012, 09:40 AM
RE: Atheism VS. Agnosticism
(15-05-2012 09:30 AM)Erxomai Wrote:  TL;DR the thread...

Then screw, Preach. We're busy having a nit-picking rant fest... and there is a curious lack of theists to chew on... unless you're volunteering? Evil_monster

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15-05-2012, 09:45 AM
RE: Atheism VS. Agnosticism
(15-05-2012 09:40 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  
(15-05-2012 09:30 AM)Erxomai Wrote:  TL;DR the thread...

Then screw, Preach. We're busy having a nit-picking rant fest... and there is a curious lack of theists to chew on... unless you're volunteering? Evil_monster
Snuffy was already chewing on me this morning. Besides, I have my morning prayers to attend to.

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15-05-2012, 09:49 AM
RE: Atheism VS. Agnosticism
Then you best back out real slow like.

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15-05-2012, 10:16 AM
RE: Atheism VS. Agnosticism
Hey, Cantor.

I don't know that I've pre-supposed anything. Unless that's a synonym for hypothesise, which I don't think it is. And I'm sure it's entirely possible to show that some God concepts come out of a work of fiction. Good luck proving that for the multi-millenium old ones though. And another thing, if you leave your tongue out too long, it'll dry out Cool

Sup, Erxomai.

I gotta disagree with you. God isn't a non-issue in my life. I do have a relationship with God. It's personal, but it's there. I don't take a "whatevs, maaaan" approach to God. I'm certainly not a Christian though, neither am I a salvationist of any ilk. In fact, I am B; which means something to people who have read The Story of B by Daniel Quinn. In short, I'm an anti-Christ (which isn't as sensational as it sounds).

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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15-05-2012, 10:38 AM
RE: Atheism VS. Agnosticism
(15-05-2012 10:16 AM)Ghost Wrote:  I do have a relationship with God.

Ah ha! Theist. Tongue

And I got lots of iced coffee to keep my tongue from drying out. Big Grin

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15-05-2012, 11:22 AM (This post was last modified: 15-05-2012 12:15 PM by TrulyX.)
RE: Atheism VS. Agnosticism
(15-05-2012 05:05 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  On what basis can agnostics say that the truth of a god is unknowable?
Don't know exactly what you're trying to get at, given some of the other stuff you wrote, but you can basically say that knowledge, in general, doesn't exist and get away with it.

Why? Epistemology.

If you came up with a viable theory as to why knowledge exists, you would automatically be thrown into a list with the greatest philosophers of all time. Philosophers for ages have been trying to prove that ANYTHING at all could be known, let alone the (non)existence of a deity, and have failed over and over.

You can, if you step outside of philosophy into real world science and empiricism, demonstrate problems with theism and deism. Obviously science gives believers in deities a whole shit ton of problems, but as soon as they take a philosophical standpoint there is really nothing you can do. You'll always have problems with induction, and you'll never be able to disprove god.

Like I said in my other post, agnosticism is a philosophical standpoint; it's not a practical, real-world standpoint. Think Russell and the teapot argument: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell%27s_teapot.

Quote: For me, the divide between Agnostics and Atheists lies almost entirely
in the fact that SOME Atheists say "there is no God" which is
categorically different than lacking a belief in God. One is a lack, the
other is a positive statement. Agnostics will never say there is no God
because it's indemonstrable and we view the belief that there is no God
to be dogmatic because it is unsupported.
Yeah, that's bullshit. I've already explained why, so I will refrain from being redundant.

Quote: And I'm sure it's entirely possible to show that some God concepts come out of a work of fiction.
Yeah, it's way more than possible to show that ALL concepts of god are bullshit.

The Paradox Of Fools And Wise Men:
“The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser men so full of doubts.” ― Bertrand Russell
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15-05-2012, 11:58 AM
RE: Atheism VS. Agnosticism
Hey, Truly.

What a wonderful contribution to the discussion that was. So thought provoking and nuanced. The community is richer for having read it.
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15-05-2012, 12:24 PM
RE: Atheism VS. Agnosticism
I made this argument on the thread titled "Question..." and I think it fits in here too.

Atheism itself is not a claim, but the rejection of one. I reject the claim for the existence of any god and I do not make the claim to know with absolute certainty that none exist. If the concept of a god or gods had never been invented by man, man would have never had to reject it.

As for a more direct answer to the OP's question, a friend of mine once called himself an agnostic and deemed it "the lazy man's atheist." I think for some (not all mind you) people that claim the title of agnostic, it is because of either a) the negative connotations associated with the term "atheist" or b) because saying "I don't know" is less confrontational than "I don't believe in any of it and I think it is all myth." Being less confrontational means people don't generally push them to say one way or the other.

“Science is simply common sense at its best, that is, rigidly accurate in observation, and merciless to fallacy in logic.”
—Thomas Henry Huxley
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