Atheism VS. Agnosticism
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16-05-2012, 07:04 PM
RE: Atheism VS. Agnosticism
(15-05-2012 02:49 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  I kan see I need my Woof pic again...

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I can understand why peeps go for agnosticism, but I'm still gonna talk smack about it. It goes like this: god is either knowable or unknowable. Nobody's talking about an unknowable god, cause everybody's talking like they know wtf is going on. So there it is. Tongue

Closest I've ever found to even being potentially "knowable" is "Love is Void". ... Everything else is just commentary and cartoons.

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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16-05-2012, 07:47 PM
RE: Atheism VS. Agnosticism
(11-05-2012 02:46 PM)Scott D Wrote:  My question is, do you think more people say they are agnostic rather than atheist?. And if so, why?
I am thinking that a great many people proclaim agnosticism because it softens the blow, so to speak. Instead of saying, flat out, "No. I do not accept deities" it sounds better and less abrasive to play semantic "patty-cake". Atheism has become a bone of contention nowadays, especially in my home.

Sadly I have done something similar myself because I live in a community that is largely religious, my step mothers friends are all religious and now, so is my father. So instead of being truthful I acted the coward by saying things like "I have my own ideas on such things".
Bit I really shouldn't feel the need to placate others though; if someone asks me if I "believe" in god then I should have the gonads to say "No".

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To obtain, something of equal value must be lost.
That is Alchemy's first law of Equivalent Exchange.
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16-05-2012, 09:21 PM
RE: Atheism VS. Agnosticism
(16-05-2012 07:47 PM)Dragon-Wolf Wrote:  
(11-05-2012 02:46 PM)Scott D Wrote:  My question is, do you think more people say they are agnostic rather than atheist?. And if so, why?
I am thinking that a great many people proclaim agnosticism because it softens the blow, so to speak. Instead of saying, flat out, "No. I do not accept deities" it sounds better and less abrasive to play semantic "patty-cake". Atheism has become a bone of contention nowadays, especially in my home.

Sadly I have done something similar myself because I live in a community that is largely religious, my step mothers friends are all religious and now, so is my father. So instead of being truthful I acted the coward by saying things like "I have my own ideas on such things".
Bit I really shouldn't feel the need to placate others though; if someone asks me if I "believe" in god then I should have the gonads to say "No".
Along these lines, I recently told a friend that I went to Christian University with 25 years ago that I was now an Atheist. He was quite interested in my story of how I became an agnostic and he was really glad that I shared with him that I had become an agnostic. I decided I didn't need to disabuse him of his misunderstanding of the words.

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
~Izel
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16-05-2012, 09:56 PM
RE: Atheism VS. Agnosticism
Theist wishfully think all atheists are agnostics.

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16-05-2012, 10:55 PM
RE: Atheism VS. Agnosticism
Hey, Hafnof.
Quote:Under these inclusive definitions both self-identifying atheists and
self-identifying agnostics would be lumped together under the one
political "atheist" term for the purposes of achieving the outcomes and
goals outlined above. For these purposes the difference between the two
is not significant.
We reject your treaty proposal. It Versailled us out of existence. How can we be expected to accept that? To you it is not significant. To us it is a denial of our existence.

I'm 100% willing to sign a treaty with you and your fine people so that together we may usher in new protections for a diverse populace, but not recognising our distinctiveness is a deal-breaker.

Back to the ol' drawing board Cool

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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16-05-2012, 11:52 PM (This post was last modified: 17-05-2012 12:16 AM by DeepThought.)
RE: Atheism VS. Agnosticism
(16-05-2012 10:55 PM)Ghost Wrote:  Hey, Hafnof.
We reject your treaty proposal. It Versailled us out of existence. How can we be expected to accept that? To you it is not significant. To us it is a denial of our existence.

I'm 100% willing to sign a treaty with you and your fine people so that together we may usher in new protections for a diverse populace, but not recognising our distinctiveness is a deal-breaker.

Back to the ol' drawing board Cool
It's kinda like this: Atheism is an Android Phone and Agnosticism is an iPhone.

The iPhone is marketed as hip, trendy, exclusive, top of the line, and cool, Cool so they like to band together and form their little cult of Apple.

The android phones do everything the iPhones do, it's just some tasks/functions are given different names and they cost less. When you send email from an android phone it doesn't say "Sent from an iPhone" so all your friends know you have one. Also the marketing tactics are different.

These sort of brand cults have existed all through human history and I guess it's just human nature. Might as well switch to debating about iPhone (iOS) vs Android.


“Forget Jesus, the stars died so you could be born.” - Lawrence M. Krauss
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17-05-2012, 12:59 AM
RE: Atheism VS. Agnosticism
(16-05-2012 09:56 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  Theist wishfully think all atheists are agnostics.
I always hope theists I talk to will also turn out to be agnostic. There really isn't any reason a theist would have to insist that God exists. There are some I've talked to who admit that they don't have any objective proof but given the lack of proof against the possibility of God existing they choose to believe there is a god. In the same way, those of us who choose to believe there is no god in the absence of any objective proof one way or the other, should be able to admit to agnosticism even though we are also atheists.

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17-05-2012, 06:18 AM
RE: Atheism VS. Agnosticism
Hey, Deep.

I know that you're not trying to be insulting, but what you're saying is just that.

I'm a Canadian. Often, people say, "Well Canadians are just like Americans, you might as well lump them in the same boat." But we're not. And we're proud of it. And we'll fight tooth and nail against any attempt to wipe out our distinctiveness and assimilate us into Americanness.

So were not just the same thing as you with hipster branding (I fucking HATE hipsters!). And we're not just some thoughtless cult. That's exceptionally dismissive and it insults our intelligence. We're not sheep, we've made a very considered decision.

To, erbody.

Definition is intimately linked to power. Atheists are trying to define us out of existence. So the question that we're not discussing is, to what advantage is it for Atheists to use exert their power to assimilate Agnostics?

Because Atheists are at war with Theists and need more fodder. It's to your advantage to bring us into the fold, both because it bolsters your ranks and because it eliminates a possible third party. But we don't want to be drafted. This thread is called Atheists VS Agnostics for a reason. Atheists want to shut us up, sit us down and get us to play nice, but Agnostics are fighting for our very existence. If we relent, we cease to be as do all of our ideals. We have nothing against Atheists (except that we'd like you to recognise your dogma so you can move past it) but if you don't stop pushing, you'll find yourself in a war on two fronts. Remember, we're in the middle. We have the exact same relationship with Theists that we do with Atheists. If all you offer us is non-existence, then perhaps we'll side with them.

OR, you can stop being patriarchal and stop pretending that you have more of a right to define us than we do.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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17-05-2012, 09:10 AM
RE: Atheism VS. Agnosticism
Good morning, Ghost,
To further your analogy, let's say Canada represents Agnosticism in the Great War. They do their part in the war, but can anyone say what they really did in the fight? They rarely get mentioned in the list of the Great Atheist Allies (Churchill, FDR, & Stalin...who lead the Canadian forces? Couldn't tell you if my life depended on it. Tongue) So we appreciate your efforts to straddle No Man's Land, but the real power in the fight lies with the Atheists!
Note: Anything written above is completely tongue in cheek as I really have no dog in this fight.

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
~Izel
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17-05-2012, 10:10 AM
RE: Atheism VS. Agnosticism
I think it is best to look at it as believers vs. non-believers. Each group can be broken down further, but the agnostics and the atheists share common ground against the believer crowd. That is both atheists and agnostics would prefer not to be governed by religion or subject to religious rules/customs. Agnostics (including those who consider themselves agnostic atheists, which I think is most atheists) also epitomize the very thing that religions despise (at least the western religions), doubt.

If we can "win" that fight, then we can go back to squabbling over who is the superior non-religious group. Doesn't matter much though in my opinion. An majority atheist government and a majority agnostic government would both govern in a secular way, so what the hell does it matter? I am all for individuals labeling themselves, as long as they do so accurately. It is not my place to label you nor include or exclude you. This applies to the term "Christian" too. That was a term that only recently became popular again (around the 50's). If you go back far enough people would have identified by the group they associate with, like Mormon or baptist or evangelical (obviously some still do that). I think they should still. The blanket term of "Christian" is far too inclusive. It includes a wide range of beliefs from the far left to the far right, and politicians brandy it about to capture votes.

I may have rambled a bit off subject there.

“Science is simply common sense at its best, that is, rigidly accurate in observation, and merciless to fallacy in logic.”
—Thomas Henry Huxley
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