"Atheism +" What exactly is your understanding on the topic?
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15-09-2012, 11:03 AM
RE: "Atheism +" What exactly is your understanding on the topic?
I watched Matt Dillahunty's videos on Atheism+; I listened to the Cognitive Dissonance Podcast talk about Atheism+ and I skim-read BlagHag's post that started all this.

My problem with Atheism+ is that it's not called Skepticism+ (or something to that effect). My atheism stems from my skepticism; so too, does my support for gender/LGBT/racial/age equality. I was raised as a Christian by my Dad, who is a bigoted xenophobe and far-right Evangelical/Anglican Christian (I say Anglican because he attends an Anglican church, despite disagreeing with the church's "tolerance" of homosexuality). I took on a lot of my Dad's views, and I didn't drop them when I started having doubts about God.

Granted, the people who helped me to change my view of things were atheists and were arguing against Biblical morality (The Atheist Experience and The Thinking Atheist Podcast were the two key things that changed my perspective on the world), but the arguments they made against religious immorality weren't: "Hey, your God doesn't exist, therefore the moral teachings within the various 'holy books' must be wrong and evil." No, the arguments were more along the lines of: "Hey, the claims of the world's 'holy books' are dubious at best, perhaps if looked into them more and gave some serious thought as to why, in western society, we can write off a lot of these teachings as 'evil', you'd be able to find your own better, secular, moral code to live by."

The problem with religious morality isn't the idea of theism, it's the way the idea of theism is used to push a dogma - a dogma that, more often than not, will promote things like strict gender-roles and punishments for those who do not conform to the rules. Well, what about atheistic, dogmatic religions? What if there's an atheistic religion that springs into existence, with moral views similar to those of radical Islam? It's skepticism that questions the morality of dogma, as well as the reasons for enforcing the dogma. It's not atheism.

The popular argument that "I was already Atheism+ before Atheism+ became a thing" is a flawed one. Why? For the reason that I mentioned above, that morality isn't and cannot be derived simply through a disbelief in the existence of a deity. So why call it Atheism+? Why use atheism as the position from which you make moral judgements? Isn't atheism as much a product of skepticism as secular morality is? Furthermore, (this is more of a silly hypothetical) what if we find out that there is a God; not necessarily a God who actively does anything, but still exists regardless? Do you change the name to Theism+?

There are plenty of secular deists and religious, yet secular theists, who campaign for equal rights and social justice. It is also possible to be a secular, non-religious theist; reinforcing the pointlessness of atheism as a basis for social activism.

A smaller point of contention for me would be the "+". Regardless of the intent behind the name, I think the comparison between being "atheism+" and traveling "first class" is a valid one. There is an implication that if you are not part of, or supportive of Atheism+, you are not a member of the 'elite' within your society. I would argue that a movement called "Skeptical Activists For Equality", or something along those lines would be a lot better. I can't support the notion that atheism has any impact on the moral beliefs of people, thus I can't endorse Atheism+.

I doubt Atheism+ will last.
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15-09-2012, 11:13 AM (This post was last modified: 15-09-2012 12:25 PM by Vosur.)
RE: "Atheism +" What exactly is your understanding on the topic?
"Do you give a shit about other people, or not? Do you believe something should be done about injustice and unfairness in society (and in talking reasonably about what should be done), or not? If not, then you are an asshole. And you are definitely thumbing-down Atheism+. We are done with you. You are not one of us. You can go start your own clubs and have your own conferences."

"Do you care about the mistreatment of women, or not? If not, then you are an asshole. And you are definitely thumbing-down Atheism+. We are done with you. You are not one of us. You can go start your own clubs and have your own conferences."

"Do you think this [diversity] is a good idea in general, or are you against it? If you are against it, then you are an asshole. And you are definitely thumbing-down Atheism+. We are done with you. You are not one of us. You can go start your own clubs and have your own conferences."

http://freethoughtblogs.com/carrier/archives/2412/

Sounds like a movement for totalitarian elitists. Drinking Beverage

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15-09-2012, 11:20 AM
RE: "Atheism +" What exactly is your understanding on the topic?
(15-09-2012 11:13 AM)Vosur Wrote:  "Do you give a shit about other people, or not? Do you believe something should be done about injustice and unfairness in society (and in talking reasonably about what should be done), or not? If not, then you are an asshole. And you are definitely thumbing-down Atheism+. We are done with you. You are not one of us. You can go start your own clubs and have your own conferences."

"Do you care about the mistreatment of women, or not? If not, then you are an asshole. And you are definitely thumbing-down Atheism+. We are done with you. You are not one of us. You can go start your own clubs and have your own conferences."

"Do you think this is a good idea in general, or are you against it? If you are against it, then you are an asshole. And you are definitely thumbing-down Atheism+. We are done with you. You are not one of us. You can go start your own clubs and have your own conferences."

http://freethoughtblogs.com/carrier/archives/2412/

Sounds like a movement for totalitarian elitists. Drinking Beverage

Damn, I heard that someone on FTB was causing an uproar by promoting Atheism+, but I never bothered to look into it. That's fucking terrible. Shocking
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15-09-2012, 12:18 PM
RE: "Atheism +" What exactly is your understanding on the topic?
(15-09-2012 11:13 AM)Vosur Wrote:  "Do you give a shit about other people, or not? Do you believe something should be done about injustice and unfairness in society (and in talking reasonably about what should be done), or not? If not, then you are an asshole. And you are definitely thumbing-down Atheism+. We are done with you. You are not one of us. You can go start your own clubs and have your own conferences."

"Do you care about the mistreatment of women, or not? If not, then you are an asshole. And you are definitely thumbing-down Atheism+. We are done with you. You are not one of us. You can go start your own clubs and have your own conferences."

"Do you think this is a good idea in general, or are you against it? If you are against it, then you are an asshole. And you are definitely thumbing-down Atheism+. We are done with you. You are not one of us. You can go start your own clubs and have your own conferences."

http://freethoughtblogs.com/carrier/archives/2412/

Sounds like a movement for totalitarian elitists. Drinking Beverage

the last quote you included is out of context, just to be fair they're talking about diversity and if you're against accepting diversity then you're an asshole and so on...

But yeah, they do sound really totalitarian, the worst side of atheism I would say Dodgy

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15-09-2012, 12:21 PM (This post was last modified: 15-09-2012 12:26 PM by Vosur.)
RE: "Atheism +" What exactly is your understanding on the topic?
(15-09-2012 12:18 PM)nach_in Wrote:  the last quote you included is out of context, just to be fair they're talking about diversity and if you're against accepting diversity then you're an asshole and so on...
I don't see why that quote would be out of context. The bottom line is that you either agree with their opinion, or you're an asshole.

That being said, I corrected the quote.

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15-09-2012, 12:25 PM
RE: "Atheism +" What exactly is your understanding on the topic?
(15-09-2012 12:21 PM)Vosur Wrote:  
(15-09-2012 12:18 PM)nach_in Wrote:  the last quote you included is out of context, just to be fair they're talking about diversity and if you're against accepting diversity then you're an asshole and so on...
I don't see why that quote would be out of context. The bottom line is that you either agree with their opinion, or you're an asshole.

when I read it I thought it was talking about A+ in general, in the article it was about something else, so it can be misleading. But yeah, bottom line doesn't change anything, I'm just picky today Tongue

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15-09-2012, 03:48 PM
RE: "Atheism +" What exactly is your understanding on the topic?
From what I gathered from my view of FTBlogs or Matt Dilahuanty's videos... the reason it exists separate from the equal idea of Secular Humanism is the goal and direction of the groups.

So they're desiring it because even though it's stance is equal on that front, the Secular Humanism groups that do exist and have for many years focus on issues dealing with issues on human well being and less focused on the religious aspect.

I guess Atheism+ wants to be a group to say we are atheists and also humanists or + this-this-this and we want to focus on making social movements that try to build awareness on that level.

I really don't care about it nor care why people are so angry about it; that's just absurd.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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16-09-2012, 10:01 PM
RE: "Atheism +" What exactly is your understanding on the topic?
Totalitarian hive mind - That about sums it up for me

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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17-09-2012, 01:03 AM
RE: "Atheism +" What exactly is your understanding on the topic?
Hmm... sounds like they started their own clubs and have their own conferences. I guess they're done with me. I'm not one of them. I'm an asshole.
Shit, I already knew that last one. Dodgy

Well... per their criteria, I am definitely thumbing-down Atheism+. Thumbsup

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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17-09-2012, 06:24 AM
RE: "Atheism +" What exactly is your understanding on the topic?
The thing is, I have an A+ t-shirt that I bought from Dawkins store. They have used that symbol for years and has nothing to do with the new Atheism+ movement.
If I wear the shirt now, I'll be seen as a totalitarian jerk. It's only use now will be to pick up women who like totalitarian jerks.
And how many of those are there ?

Oh wait.......this could be a good thing Big Grin

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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