Atheism and Feminism (debates)?
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27-11-2015, 03:49 PM
RE: Atheism and Feminism (debates)?
(27-11-2015 11:27 AM)WalkingSnake Wrote:  One of my still favorite things to do is watch debates on youtube. One of the major influences leading me down the path to atheism was watching these debates. I love watching Aron Ra and Matt Dillahunty kill it against creationists.

The interesting thing was that I was talking to an atheist friend of mine at work. And he agreed with me that they have pretty good things to say about religion, and science, and morality; but when it comes to feminism, they're feminists to the point where that is now their religion.

I'm not sure if I totally agree with that, but of course when that happens I try to research it for myself. And I find a lot of videos and articles from these internet atheists talking about why they are feminists, and the importance of feminism for atheism (I think Steve Shives is campaigning this right now). And of course, I see that they make some good points and some that I disagree with. I see a lot of response videos from atheists who see problems with modern feminism, like Amazing Atheist and Thunderf00t, again some things I agree with, some that I don't.

But what's missing is the conversations. Get TJ in a debate hall with Rebecca Watson and talk about feminism. Why is this a topic to avoid? If they feel strongly about feminism the way they do with religion, why is feminism not a debate topic?

The title of the thread should be Theism and Feminism.

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27-11-2015, 03:58 PM
RE: Atheism and Feminism (debates)?
(27-11-2015 11:27 AM)WalkingSnake Wrote:  One of my still favorite things to do is watch debates on youtube. One of the major influences leading me down the path to atheism was watching these debates. I love watching Aron Ra and Matt Dillahunty kill it against creationists.

The interesting thing was that I was talking to an atheist friend of mine at work. And he agreed with me that they have pretty good things to say about religion, and science, and morality; but when it comes to feminism, they're feminists to the point where that is now their religion.

I'm not sure if I totally agree with that, but of course when that happens I try to research it for myself. And I find a lot of videos and articles from these internet atheists talking about why they are feminists, and the importance of feminism for atheism (I think Steve Shives is campaigning this right now). And of course, I see that they make some good points and some that I disagree with. I see a lot of response videos from atheists who see problems with modern feminism, like Amazing Atheist and Thunderf00t, again some things I agree with, some that I don't.

But what's missing is the conversations. Get TJ in a debate hall with Rebecca Watson and talk about feminism. Why is this a topic to avoid? If they feel strongly about feminism the way they do with religion, why is feminism not a debate topic?

Tj said on the drunken peasents that he wants to debate a femenist, but most don't like to debate.

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27-11-2015, 04:03 PM
RE: Atheism and Feminism (debates)?
(27-11-2015 03:16 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  I think there needs to be a different word for men who support women's equality but I don't think that word is "feminist".

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27-11-2015, 04:04 PM
RE: Atheism and Feminism (debates)?
So I see articles like this:

https://usilive.org/opinions/why-i-call-...alitarian/

And think okay, that's definitely a better definition that should make feminism seem better to critics. But then I think: is the author talking about feminism or what egalitarianism should be without reliazing it?

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27-11-2015, 04:05 PM
RE: Atheism and Feminism (debates)?
(27-11-2015 03:31 PM)Slowminded Wrote:  
(27-11-2015 03:16 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  I'm not sure about male feminists. I don't even know what that's suppose to be. Isn't it like a white person being pro African American? Yeah, you can be for equality for all people, I think most intelligent people want that but I'm not sure you can call yourself an African Americanist when your white. I think there needs to be a different word for men who support women's equality but I don't think that word is "feminist".
Would you care to explain the difference between women's equality and equality to me?

I'm old enough to remember when women couldn't get a loan for a house, business or a car. They had to have their husband or father's signature. When I was a young girl they finally stopped advertising jobs for male or female. My own mother had her first four children taken away from her ( these would be my half brothers) even when her first husband beat the shit out of her. Lawyers just didn't care much if a woman was beaten by her husband. Her testimony in court meant nothing because she was just a woman.

The first wave of feminism chipped away at these major forms of discrimination which were overtly unequal. Each decade has highlighted some form of discrimination against women, many are not so obvious as car loans or jobs. It's more social now. Women don't want to be overlooked or paid less for a comparable job because they are just a woman. By the same token, they don't want to be merely looked at because they are just a woman. It's demeaning to women when this happens.

I'm not sure about feminism being a cult. How exactly is it a cult?

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27-11-2015, 04:06 PM (This post was last modified: 27-11-2015 04:10 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Atheism and Feminism (debates)?
(27-11-2015 03:46 PM)julep Wrote:  
(27-11-2015 03:41 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  ManlyGirl says it ain't feminism it's matriarchal. ... Yes dear.

If we were a matriarchy I would be able to force them to eat broccoli.

I like it roasted, like Brussel sprouts.

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27-11-2015, 04:11 PM (This post was last modified: 27-11-2015 04:28 PM by Tartarus Sauce.)
RE: Atheism and Feminism (debates)?
(27-11-2015 03:46 PM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  Femenism is pointless. Egalitarian

Special interest activism is not pointless. It allows for specific goals within broader agendas to be more easily attainable in the long run. Social changes tend to develop piecemeal overtime, so having specific organizations spearheading the activism of one particular hot-button issue outputs more effective results than a bulky, shotgun-style approach. Just calling for wholesale egalitarianism with no procedural plan of action for advocating your platform in a workable manner will be like pissing in the wind, it will require step-by-step planning.

However, an argument can be made that the current wave of feminism is pointless as far as viable activism goes. Ever since the second wave of feminism hit in the late 60s and early 70s, feminism as a movement has fractured and divided into various splintering factions to the point where there is no longer a cohesive vision of what feminism as a whole is trying to accomplish anymore. I don't know what a person means when they say they are a "feminist." Which kind of feminist? The simple and straightforward advocate for equal gender rights? I would certainly identify myself as that. The more analytically involved? They tend to split between those who are actually interested in analyzing gender roles and their impact on society and those who initiate all philosophical examinations of gender dynamics with the assumption that it's wrong as a whole, can apply to anything under the sun, and/or must be changed in a way that empowers women to reject heterosexual relationships. Or are we just talking about just the straight up misandrist, Valeria Solanas-esque, batshit insane feminist?

It's absolutely become a dirty word and it's not because of the "patriarchy's" efforts that feminism has been sullied, it's because feminists cant agree what the fuck the word means anymore.

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27-11-2015, 04:16 PM
RE: Atheism and Feminism (debates)?
(27-11-2015 04:05 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  I'm not sure about feminism being a cult. How exactly is it a cult?

It is a cult because of its bs. First it is racist and sexist by saying white men are the problem, they also try censorship when they don't like something.OMG THAT VIDEO GAME CHARACTER HAS BIG BOOBS CHANGE IT!!!!! Third is it trying to absorb all other movements and claim it as femenism, from racial rights to gay rights. Last it is based on hypocrisy. They will see a scantly clad character and complain, while also complaining they can't be scantaly clad. Now what is the cult part? Well like all cults it causes damage but claims to do good. Like:

Christianity=love

Islam=peace

Femenism=equality

There is a lot of problems with modern Femenism, just would take to long to type on my kindle.

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27-11-2015, 04:18 PM (This post was last modified: 27-11-2015 04:23 PM by Metazoa Zeke.)
RE: Atheism and Feminism (debates)?
(27-11-2015 04:11 PM)Tartarus Sauce Wrote:  
(27-11-2015 03:46 PM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  Femenism is pointless. Egalitarian

Special interest activism is not pointless. It allows for specific goals within broader agendas to be more easily attainable in the long run. Social changes tend to develop piecemeal overtime, so having specific organizations spearheading the activism of one particular hot-button issue outputs more effective results than a bulky, shotgun-style approach. Just calling for wholesale egalitarianism with no procedural plan of action for advocating your platform in a workable manner will be like pissing in the wind, it will require step-by-step planning.

However, an argument can be made that the current wave of feminism is pointless as far as viable activism goes. Ever since the second wave of feminism hit in the late 60s and early 70s, feminism as a movement has fractured and divided into various splintering factions to the point where there is no longer a cohesive vision of what feminism as a whole is trying to accomplish anymore. I don't know what a person means when they say they are a "feminist." Which kind of feminist? The simple and straightforward advocate for equal gender rights? I would certainly identify myself as that. The more analytically involved? They tend to split between those whom are actually interested in analyzing gender roles and their impact on society and those whom initiate all philosophical examinations of gender dynamics with the assumption that it's wrong as a whole, can apply to anything under the sun, and/or must be changed in a way that empowers women to reject heterosexual relationships. Or are we just talking about just the straight up misandrist, Valeria Solanas-esque, batshit insane feminist?

It's absolutely become a dirty word and it's not because of the "patriarchy's" efforts that feminism has been sullied, it's because feminists cant agree what the fuck the word means anymore.

So egalitarians can't focus on womens issues alone? It can. If and egalitarian sees a problem women are facing they can help. Also to add i don't think the idea Femenism is defined by is pointless, but the label is. And yes i am talking about modern Femenism

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27-11-2015, 04:37 PM
RE: Atheism and Feminism (debates)?
(27-11-2015 04:18 PM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  
(27-11-2015 04:11 PM)Tartarus Sauce Wrote:  Special interest activism is not pointless. It allows for specific goals within broader agendas to be more easily attainable in the long run. Social changes tend to develop piecemeal overtime, so having specific organizations spearheading the activism of one particular hot-button issue outputs more effective results than a bulky, shotgun-style approach. Just calling for wholesale egalitarianism with no procedural plan of action for advocating your platform in a workable manner will be like pissing in the wind, it will require step-by-step planning.

However, an argument can be made that the current wave of feminism is pointless as far as viable activism goes. Ever since the second wave of feminism hit in the late 60s and early 70s, feminism as a movement has fractured and divided into various splintering factions to the point where there is no longer a cohesive vision of what feminism as a whole is trying to accomplish anymore. I don't know what a person means when they say they are a "feminist." Which kind of feminist? The simple and straightforward advocate for equal gender rights? I would certainly identify myself as that. The more analytically involved? They tend to split between those whom are actually interested in analyzing gender roles and their impact on society and those whom initiate all philosophical examinations of gender dynamics with the assumption that it's wrong as a whole, can apply to anything under the sun, and/or must be changed in a way that empowers women to reject heterosexual relationships. Or are we just talking about just the straight up misandrist, Valeria Solanas-esque, batshit insane feminist?

It's absolutely become a dirty word and it's not because of the "patriarchy's" efforts that feminism has been sullied, it's because feminists cant agree what the fuck the word means anymore.

So egalitarians can't focus on womens issues alone? It can. If and egalitarian sees a problem women are facing they can help. Also to add i don't think the idea Femenism is defined by is pointless, but the label is. And yes i am talking about modern Femenism

Your statement implied that feminism was pointless because egalitarianism encompassed a broader scope of involvement. Of course egalitarians can lend a helping hand to specific causes, your message was merely misleading and I was responding to what I thought you were implying. I agree though, feminism as a label has become dead weight. It's a problem when the descriptive label is more likely to invite inaccurate assumptions rather than clarity. If these ills are the result of external forces, that allows a group to unify in their message to dispel the misconceptions, but the confusion over feminism is entirely nestled within internal division, and the varying factions of feminism are doing a pitiful job consolidating the field into something manageable.

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