Atheism and Morality
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29-10-2011, 06:20 PM
RE: Atheism and Morality
I think Richard Dawkins sums up my feelings quite nicely:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3oQJCJedmeo

I would rather not murder, for example, because I have questioned my beliefs about murder and have decided that it is wrong, than to believe it is wrong solely on the basis that I have been told it is wrong, with no actual thought involved on my behalf.

"Sin, young man, is when you treat people as things" - Granny Weatherwax in Carpe Jugulum by Terry Pratchett.
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29-10-2011, 06:37 PM
RE: Atheism and Morality
(29-10-2011 03:45 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(28-10-2011 02:55 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Vector Atheism Prototype is a four page resolution of morality.
That's some good shit right there, Cantor.
You do me honor, and I thank you.

I don't like much of the wording and implications of ego, but the simple truth is that the prototype makes me "worthwhile human being" where in matters - in the heart - so than now I can look any man it the eye.

Wanting more outta life - is just kinda ridiculous, I think - but the some total of zero-state morality is oneness with universe. Everybody should be one with their own universe. No judgement, rewards or punishments - simple completeness.

(29-10-2011 04:05 PM)Zatamon Wrote:  I am sick to the teeth with the word: 'morality'.

I understand. You probably hate me then, and I don't blame you a bit. I used to hate the entire concept - it was that fucker Jerry Falwell. Big Grin

Now I got it like I'm being used as a moral standard by I hardly know. I'm a psychopath, a felon, an imbiber of dangerous substances; everything every mom told you to avoid - and now, none (in person, anyway) question my morality? How ridiculous is that?

It is love.

(yeah, it is not recommended to obsess over a movie star as a pathway to nirvana; but of course old experts always give way to new. Evolution, baby!)

And I would not surprise me one bit if ol' Jerry got "a talking to" after waking from this life. Big Grin

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29-10-2011, 06:59 PM
RE: Atheism and Morality
(29-10-2011 06:20 PM)Mad Prophet Wrote:  I think Richard Dawkins sums up my feelings quite nicely:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3oQJCJedmeo

I would rather not murder, for example, because I have questioned my beliefs about murder and have decided that it is wrong, than to believe it is wrong solely on the basis that I have been told it is wrong, with no actual thought involved on my behalf.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR POSTING THAT VIDEO! I've been craving to hear such a good argument like that...craving it like a pregnant woman craves...everything. Heart
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29-10-2011, 07:02 PM (This post was last modified: 29-10-2011 07:21 PM by houseofcantor.)
RE: Atheism and Morality
(29-10-2011 05:23 PM)Zatamon Wrote:  In the second, we have an awful lot of undefined words (good, evil, right, wrong, virtue, vice, justice, crime) that entirely depends on your own personal attitude towards your fellow human beings. It is a VERY ambiguous concept and that is why I don’t like to use it and that is why I compared it to religion’s god, as an example of our prime undefined concepts.

Then erase the blackboard, and start anew; that's where I'm at. There is but a single thing I have done that may be unique - took the ultimate truth from scripture. YHWH.

I am
and added
I choose

That is all - the Moral Will in its infancy - and you were there! Big Grin

That's what we all do. "I am" - identity "I choose" - morality
Morality is zero-state, identity dual-state; the Moral Will makes any man a human being.

(the only god deserving any credit outta this deal is Gwyneth Paltrow - 11 years and no one hadda die? You ever see that kinda behavior come out of a god? Even gods evolve. Wink)
(29-10-2011 06:59 PM)Atheist#6667 Wrote:  
(29-10-2011 06:20 PM)Mad Prophet Wrote:  I think Richard Dawkins sums up my feelings quite nicely:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3oQJCJedmeo

I would rather not murder, for example, because I have questioned my beliefs about murder and have decided that it is wrong, than to believe it is wrong solely on the basis that I have been told it is wrong, with no actual thought involved on my behalf.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR POSTING THAT VIDEO! I've been craving to hear such a good argument like that...craving it like a pregnant woman craves...everything. Heart
It is good that you were able to find what you have sought. I'm partial to Sam Harris myself (outta the Four Horsemen - who'da thunk something come outta Revelation, be as cool as these 4? Big Grin).

(29-10-2011 06:20 PM)Mad Prophet Wrote:  I think Richard Dawkins sums up my feelings quite nicely:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3oQJCJedmeo

I would rather not murder, for example, because I have questioned my beliefs about murder and have decided that it is wrong, than to believe it is wrong solely on the basis that I have been told it is wrong, with no actual thought involved on my behalf.

*sigh* another one... Big Grin
Murder is a precise legal term involving malice aforethought - it says nothing to say, I will not murder - your lawyer will give you the same advice. Wink

Morality is basic evolved functionality, as such, there is actually no value placed on life - but rather survivability. (and don't gimme none o' that "anthropomorphism of evolution is fail." I've seen your man Dawkins giving himself lip for doing it, and Dawkins would love this unit, lemme tell ya Big Grin)

It should be obvious by now that it is not immoral to kill - justifiable homicide? war hero? you gonna let some punk take your shit from you? - knowing this beforehand prepares one for this worst.

What civilization has given most of us is this truth: it is not ethical to kill. That's why I don't do it. Wink

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29-10-2011, 07:22 PM
RE: Atheism and Morality
I personally believe that as an atheist I have an edge over the believers in the moral arena.
And this is why;
If I do something to hurt you, ether physically or emotionally or even economically then I need to make amends to you.
And as I have a conscience I will endeavour to clear it with those I have harmed.

It’s not like I can go to some building and get forgiveness from some third party is it?

A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything. Friedrich Nietzsche
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29-10-2011, 07:43 PM (This post was last modified: 29-10-2011 07:54 PM by kim.)
RE: Atheism and Morality
Atheist#6667 Wrote:
Quote:Morality evolved in our species as a way to keep us alive, so I believe. If a member of our survival group did not act in a moral manner it could be detrimental to the group's survival. Such a thing prompted early humans to adapt a code of ethics to prevent themselves from harming themselves...

Many fundamentalists see atheists as having some kind of "selfish morality" if any. To them, atheists seem only concerned with how much pleasure can be derived from life, with no regard for what "scripture" decides is ethical. They view atheists as serving only the "self" and to them, this must be a detriment to furthering the species as a group. It's kind of like; I don't know how that works, so how can someone else know how it works? Fundamentalists do not take personal responsibility for their own actions [they give it over to God], and have difficulty relating to anyone who does not serve [?] something outside the self.
Many confuse "survival of the species" with "self preservation", and I think that many religious fundamentalists make that confused mistake where "morality" is concerned.

Thank you, Karl; your point helps illustrate my point, exactly. Smile

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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29-10-2011, 10:26 PM
RE: Atheism and Morality
(29-10-2011 07:02 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  It is good that you were able to find what you have sought. I'm partial to Sam Harris myself (outta the Four Horsemen - who'da thunk something come outta Revelation, be as cool as these 4? Big Grin).

Thank you. I also hadn't heard of the term four horsemen referring to those great men before. I am rereading "The God Delusion" (Slowly, because I'm also reading "Atlas Shrugged") After I finish that I'll probably read something written by Harris or Hitchens.
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29-10-2011, 10:59 PM
RE: Atheism and Morality
(29-10-2011 10:26 PM)Atheist#6667 Wrote:  
(29-10-2011 07:02 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  It is good that you were able to find what you have sought. I'm partial to Sam Harris myself (outta the Four Horsemen - who'da thunk something come outta Revelation, be as cool as these 4? Big Grin).

Thank you. I also hadn't heard of the term four horsemen referring to those great men before. I am rereading "The God Delusion" (Slowly, because I'm also reading "Atlas Shrugged") After I finish that I'll probably read something written by Harris or Hitchens.

My first impression of Dawkins was that he was an idiot - he was debating some Christian; and Dawkins is a fundie atheist and no joke - after reading a coupla his biology books and seeing vids where he ain't taking 'em on face to face, I hadda revise my original assessment. He's an asshole. Big Grin

But a man of greatness, doing great things. From what I've seen, he's eased off the throttle; better for all of us. Wink

Never met him, but I'm quite sure he's a great guy. I'm an asshole, which is how I know he's one; we'd probably get along just fine.

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30-10-2011, 01:29 AM
RE: Atheism and Morality
(29-10-2011 07:02 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  
(29-10-2011 06:20 PM)Mad Prophet Wrote:  I think Richard Dawkins sums up my feelings quite nicely:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3oQJCJedmeo

I would rather not murder, for example, because I have questioned my beliefs about murder and have decided that it is wrong, than to believe it is wrong solely on the basis that I have been told it is wrong, with no actual thought involved on my behalf.

*sigh* another one... Big Grin
Murder is a precise legal term involving malice aforethought - it says nothing to say, I will not murder - your lawyer will give you the same advice. Wink

Morality is basic evolved functionality, as such, there is actually no value placed on life - but rather survivability. (and don't gimme none o' that "anthropomorphism of evolution is fail." I've seen your man Dawkins giving himself lip for doing it, and Dawkins would love this unit, lemme tell ya Big Grin)

It should be obvious by now that it is not immoral to kill - justifiable homicide? war hero? you gonna let some punk take your shit from you? - knowing this beforehand prepares one for this worst.

What civilization has given most of us is this truth: it is not ethical to kill. That's why I don't do it. Wink

Perhaps murder wasn't the best example, it was just the first that sprang to mind, possibly because it appears so often in this thread. All I meant was that I would rather my morals were based upon a set of beliefs which I have examined and have decided I can live with, not ones that have been instilled in me from a young age and where questioning those beliefs is seen as subverting some form of higher authority.

"Sin, young man, is when you treat people as things" - Granny Weatherwax in Carpe Jugulum by Terry Pratchett.
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30-10-2011, 09:53 AM
RE: Atheism and Morality
(30-10-2011 01:29 AM)Mad Prophet Wrote:  Perhaps murder wasn't the best example, it was just the first that sprang to mind, possibly because it appears so often in this thread. All I meant was that I would rather my morals were based upon a set of beliefs which I have examined and have decided I can live with, not ones that have been instilled in me from a young age and where questioning those beliefs is seen as subverting some form of higher authority.

Then that's what you got. What's the problem, here? Big Grin

This fucking thread, that dang Gwynnies, and all atheists in general... I didn't "know what I was doing" when I "invented" zero-state morality; all I knew was I hadda call it something. Cause it doesn't seem to know its morality and it ain't mine, it's the same shit everybody's got...

Zero-state lets me use mine. You'll never guess what happened... Big Grin

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