Atheism and morality
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
26-05-2015, 11:58 AM
RE: Atheism and morality
(26-05-2015 11:23 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  That being said, this won't stop me from saying phrases like "murder is wrong", because it's a lot easier to say that than "I believe murder is wrong, not in a fundamental sense, but in my opinion based on the effects it causes". I really only elaborate when I have to, which is pretty much only in Internet debates.

But when you say murder is wrong, do you see yourself as merely expressing a distaste? Like if I were to say wearing those shoes with that dress is wrong?

If it's not wrong in this subjective sense, can you provide a "wrong" that's not objective, but analogous to it?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
26-05-2015, 12:24 PM
RE: Atheism and morality
(26-05-2015 11:58 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(26-05-2015 11:23 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  That being said, this won't stop me from saying phrases like "murder is wrong", because it's a lot easier to say that than "I believe murder is wrong, not in a fundamental sense, but in my opinion based on the effects it causes". I really only elaborate when I have to, which is pretty much only in Internet debates.

But when you say murder is wrong, do you see yourself as merely expressing a distaste? Like if I were to say wearing those shoes with that dress is wrong?

If it's not wrong in this subjective sense, can you provide a "wrong" that's not objective, but analogous to it?

Subjective: Honor killings

http://www.cnn.com/2014/06/28/world/asia...r-murders/

Objective: Evolutionary Benefits i.e. Cooperation among group members

http://www.beinghuman.org/article/evolut...ooperation
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
26-05-2015, 12:30 PM (This post was last modified: 26-05-2015 12:34 PM by Tomasia.)
RE: Atheism and morality
(26-05-2015 12:24 PM)jennybee Wrote:  
(26-05-2015 11:58 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  But when you say murder is wrong, do you see yourself as merely expressing a distaste? Like if I were to say wearing those shoes with that dress is wrong?

If it's not wrong in this subjective sense, can you provide a "wrong" that's not objective, but analogous to it?

Subjective: Honor killings

http://www.cnn.com/2014/06/28/world/asia...r-murders/

Objective: Evolutionary Benefits i.e. Cooperation among group members

http://www.beinghuman.org/article/evolut...ooperation

You might have to connect the dots here for me?

When you say that honor killings are morally wrong, and view this wrong as subjective, does it mean that it's wrong in the same way that wearing that shoe with this dress is wrong? Where one is merely expressing his distaste?

Or is honor killing wrong in some other sense, that's not merely expressing your distaste, but is not objectively wrong?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
26-05-2015, 12:41 PM
RE: Atheism and morality
(26-05-2015 12:30 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(26-05-2015 12:24 PM)jennybee Wrote:  Subjective: Honor killings

http://www.cnn.com/2014/06/28/world/asia...r-murders/

Objective: Evolutionary Benefits i.e. Cooperation among group members

http://www.beinghuman.org/article/evolut...ooperation

You might have to connect the dots here for me?

When you say that honor killings are morally wrong, and view this wrong as subjective, does it mean that it's wrong in the same way that wearing that shoe with this dress is wrong? Where one is merely expressing his distaste?

Or is honor killing wrong in some other sense, that's not merely expressing your distaste, but is not objectively wrong?

People who commit honor killings believe that what they are doing is morally right. Other cultures/societies around the world would look at honor killings as morally wrong. Since someone is being murdered I don't think you can equate that to a new pair of shoes and a new dress, no. Last time I checked, people weren't being stoned to death on Project Runway. Tongue
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 4 users Like jennybee's post
26-05-2015, 12:51 PM
RE: Atheism and morality
(26-05-2015 12:41 PM)jennybee Wrote:  People who commit honor killings believe that what they are doing is morally right. Other cultures/societies around the world would look at honor killings as morally wrong. Since someone is being murdered I don't think you can equate that to a new pair of shoes and a new dress, no. Last time I checked, people weren't being stoned to death on Project Runway. Tongue

I wasn't asking about other people, I was asking about you. I'm assuming you think that honor killings are wrong?

But and that what you mean by "wrong" is purely subjective?

And the only difference between saying it's wrong here subjectively, unlike a fashion critic sayings the dress some celebrity wore last night was subjectively wrong, is that this subjective wrong involves murder?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
26-05-2015, 01:02 PM
RE: Atheism and morality
(26-05-2015 12:51 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(26-05-2015 12:41 PM)jennybee Wrote:  People who commit honor killings believe that what they are doing is morally right. Other cultures/societies around the world would look at honor killings as morally wrong. Since someone is being murdered I don't think you can equate that to a new pair of shoes and a new dress, no. Last time I checked, people weren't being stoned to death on Project Runway. Tongue

I wasn't asking about other people, I was asking about you. I'm assuming you think that honor killings are wrong?

But and that what you mean by "wrong" is purely subjective?

And the only difference between saying it's wrong here subjectively, unlike a fashion critic sayings the dress some celebrity wore last night was subjectively wrong, is that this subjective wrong involves murder?

Me personally, yes, I think honor killings are both wrong and horrific. However, those from other cultures who believe in carrying out honor killings would say I was the one who was wrong. I am not sure why you are bringing up fashion in a debate about murder? You can change your outfit. If you murder someone they are dead, fini.

If you are asking if fashion is subjective--yes. Are cultural mores subjective--yes. I don't really see the correlation beyond that.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 4 users Like jennybee's post
26-05-2015, 01:33 PM (This post was last modified: 26-05-2015 01:39 PM by Tomasia.)
RE: Atheism and morality
(26-05-2015 01:02 PM)jennybee Wrote:  I am not sure why you are bringing up fashion in a debate about murder? You can change your outfit. If you murder someone they are dead, fini.

If you are asking if fashion is subjective--yes. Are cultural mores subjective--yes. I don't really see the correlation beyond that.

I'm asking because I'm never too sure what atheists mean by subjective, particularly when they try and distinguish moral subjectivity from other forms of subjectivity. You point out that one involves killing and the other involves outfits, which to me is like pointing out that the difference between food and movie preferences, are that one involves movies and the other involves food.

All I am trying to clear up, is to see if when you say murder is wrong, or honor killing is wrong, that all it means is that you don't like it. Such as when you tell someone who supports honor killing that it's wrong, you're just expressing something you don't like against what they do like.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
26-05-2015, 01:43 PM
RE: Atheism and morality
(26-05-2015 06:26 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  But how about a third option, a monkey who does not take the banana, not ought of fear of being beaten, but our of recognition and concern for the other monkeys who would get doused with cold water.
But the point of the experiment is that there is no cold water. The point is that no monkeys remain who experience any non monkey retribution consequences.
They aren't reacting out of fear of getting wet, they are reacting out of habit, perhaps out of belief that it is taboo to go for the banana, perhaps a belief that the banana is sacred. The real reason to not go for the banana has been lost and is no longer discoverable.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
26-05-2015, 01:43 PM
RE: Atheism and morality
(26-05-2015 01:33 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(26-05-2015 01:02 PM)jennybee Wrote:  I am not sure why you are bringing up fashion in a debate about murder? You can change your outfit. If you murder someone they are dead, fini.

If you are asking if fashion is subjective--yes. Are cultural mores subjective--yes. I don't really see the correlation beyond that.

I'm asking because I'm never too sure what atheists mean by subjective, particularly when they try and distinguish moral subjectivity from other forms of subjectivity. You point out that one involves killing and the other involves outfits, which to me is like pointing out that the difference between food and movie preferences, are that one involves movies and the other involves food.

All I am trying to clear up, is to see if when you say murder is wrong, or honor killing is wrong, that all it means is that you don't like it. Such as when you tell someone who supports honor killing that it's wrong, you're just expressing something you don't like against what they do like.

I don't think they like honor killing--I think it is done as a way to prevent shame on the family and to induce some sort of societal control.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
26-05-2015, 01:50 PM
RE: Atheism and morality
The different consequences result in the two acts being too dissimilar for useful analogy.

But to address where I think Tomasia is going with this -- the essence of a subjective moral assessment of "good" or "evil" is proportional to the harm it does another person.

Mismatched shoes don't hurt anyone outside of a fashion critic who, if he's that sensitive, probably needs a little hurtin'. But murder has obvious deleterious and final results doing irreparable harm. So I think it's cool to say fashion mismatches are faux pas, and murder is evil.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: