Atheism and morality
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26-05-2015, 02:17 PM
RE: Atheism and morality
(26-05-2015 02:15 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(26-05-2015 02:12 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  I know of none.

But my question is not in relationship to do you believe it's wrong to torture babies for fun, which everyone here would agree is wrong (beside Stevel, who doesn't believe in morality), but the meaning behind claiming that this wrong is subjective/relative rather than objective.

I don't believe it's "WRONG" either. I keep telling you this. There is differences from how you use the terms and right/wrong do imply there is a right/wrong of an objective sense.

I'd say it's harmful to torture babies. Very much so. And that unless in a outlandish hypothetical there isn't any other rational benefit that can come from doing it.

I'm still trying to figure out what it would demonstrate if there were an objective moral standard by which humans hold themselves to? Consider

Also, there are cultures that see no issue with torturing babies and do so because their religion mandates that they do. You know...things like circumcision and removal of the clitoris.

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26-05-2015, 02:23 PM
RE: Atheism and morality
(26-05-2015 02:15 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  I don't believe it's "WRONG" either. I keep telling you this. There is differences from how you use the terms and right/wrong do imply there is a right/wrong of an objective sense.

I'd say it's harmful to torture babies. Very much so. And that unless in a outlandish hypothetical there isn't any other rational benefit that can come from doing it.

And so what? So what if it's harmful to torture babies?

Am I supposed to not do things that are harmful to others?
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26-05-2015, 02:27 PM
RE: Atheism and morality
(26-05-2015 02:23 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(26-05-2015 02:15 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  I don't believe it's "WRONG" either. I keep telling you this. There is differences from how you use the terms and right/wrong do imply there is a right/wrong of an objective sense.

I'd say it's harmful to torture babies. Very much so. And that unless in a outlandish hypothetical there isn't any other rational benefit that can come from doing it.

And so what? So what if it's harmful to torture babies?

Am I supposed to not do things that are harmful to others?

If you want to keep your freedom or your facial structure intact. Folks tend to look askance at baby-torturers ... again, shared values.
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26-05-2015, 02:28 PM
RE: Atheism and morality
(26-05-2015 02:27 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  
(26-05-2015 02:23 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  And so what? So what if it's harmful to torture babies?

Am I supposed to not do things that are harmful to others?

If you want to keep your freedom or your facial structure intact. Folks tend to look askance at baby-torturers ... again, shared values.

"Shared Values". Or another way of putting it, laws

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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26-05-2015, 02:28 PM
RE: Atheism and morality
(26-05-2015 02:12 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(26-05-2015 02:03 PM)WalkingSnake Wrote:  Tomasia, where are we going with this secular morality thing? How many atheists do you know are running around torturing babies for fun?

I know of none.

But my question is not in relationship to do you believe it's wrong to torture babies for fun, which everyone here would agree is wrong (beside Stevel, who doesn't believe in morality), but the meaning behind claiming that this wrong is subjective/relative rather than objective.

Didn't read the rest of my post?

To sum it up. Morality is not as simple as you are making it. No, torturing babies is not "wrong". It's what society agrees it is. If the society agrees that it's wrong, then to them it's wrong.

The agreement on morality is more important than the proposer of morality. Even to religion. The sacred text may place more importance on the proposer of morality ("Thus saith the Lord your God"). But the reality is that the agreement is more important.

Look, Tomasia, I'm sure you can agree that in the thousands and thousands of religions, many of them have gods who are have morals that disagree with yours. Somewhere out there is a god that's okay with baby torture, why don't you serve that god?
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26-05-2015, 02:30 PM
RE: Atheism and morality
(26-05-2015 02:27 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  
(26-05-2015 02:23 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  And so what? So what if it's harmful to torture babies?

Am I supposed to not do things that are harmful to others?

If you want to keep your freedom or your facial structure intact. Folks tend to look askance at baby-torturers ... again, shared values.

So one shouldn't torture babies just for the fun of it, for fear of losing their freedom and social structure?
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26-05-2015, 02:31 PM
RE: Atheism and morality
(26-05-2015 02:23 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(26-05-2015 02:15 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  I don't believe it's "WRONG" either. I keep telling you this. There is differences from how you use the terms and right/wrong do imply there is a right/wrong of an objective sense.

I'd say it's harmful to torture babies. Very much so. And that unless in a outlandish hypothetical there isn't any other rational benefit that can come from doing it.

And so what? So what if it's harmful to torture babies?

Am I supposed to not do things that are harmful to others?

There you go with that wording again. "supposed to" ... doesn't that imply some type of order giver?

To me, I answer the "So what?" as I don't want to harm babies because I don't believe things deserve being harmed for bad reasons, almost for any cause even.. Yes it's biologically based on upon the golden rule and other cliche reasons. I wouldn't want me to have been okay to be harmed by a baby or if I have a baby I wouldn't want it harmed. I wouldn't want the baby of some random guy named Gustav somewhere halfway around the worlds baby to be harmed either.

I want harm to be minimal on babies because I thnk it helps less harm existing overall throughout societies which I think leads to a better world for people. Ya know all that cliche stuff. Harm breads fear, fear breads hate, hate breads further harm.. or so forth and so on, something something darkside.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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26-05-2015, 02:35 PM
RE: Atheism and morality
(26-05-2015 02:28 PM)WalkingSnake Wrote:  
(26-05-2015 02:12 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  I know of none.

But my question is not in relationship to do you believe it's wrong to torture babies for fun, which everyone here would agree is wrong (beside Stevel, who doesn't believe in morality), but the meaning behind claiming that this wrong is subjective/relative rather than objective.

Didn't read the rest of my post?

To sum it up. Morality is not as simple as you are making it. No, torturing babies is not "wrong". It's what society agrees it is. If the society agrees that it's wrong, then to them it's wrong.

The agreement on morality is more important than the proposer of morality. Even to religion. The sacred text may place more importance on the proposer of morality ("Thus saith the Lord your God"). But the reality is that the agreement is more important.

Look, Tomasia, I'm sure you can agree that in the thousands and thousands of religions, many of them have gods who are have morals that disagree with yours. Somewhere out there is a god that's okay with baby torture, why don't you serve that god?

Moloch fits.... Nuttin' like burning babies for god.....

.......................................

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26-05-2015, 02:35 PM
RE: Atheism and morality
(26-05-2015 02:28 PM)WalkingSnake Wrote:  Didn't read the rest of my post?

I thought I did.

Quote:To sum it up. Morality is not as simple as you are making it. No, torturing babies is not "wrong". It's what society agrees it is. If the society agrees that it's wrong, then to them it's wrong.

So right are wrong, are merely what a consensus in a society agrees upon?
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26-05-2015, 02:37 PM
RE: Atheism and morality
(26-05-2015 02:35 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  So right are wrong, are merely what a consensus in a society agrees upon?

YES

P.S. Even a religious society.
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