Atheism and morality
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26-05-2015, 02:49 PM
RE: Atheism and morality
(26-05-2015 02:46 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(26-05-2015 02:42 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  Potentially yes; potentially no. It depends on how significant you would deem some moral values. Your society would have influence on you but some people can see outside or from other perspectives not of their society. But group influence is a strong social function.

What do you mean by some people can see outside?

What do you mean by "What do you mean by some people can see outside?"?

“Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up, must come down, down, down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it.”
— Dan Barker —
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26-05-2015, 02:50 PM (This post was last modified: 26-05-2015 02:55 PM by Tomasia.)
RE: Atheism and morality
(26-05-2015 02:45 PM)Timber1025 Wrote:  You have become the most exhausting poster in this forum FFS! The same damn thing over and over, with the same damn answers that you just cannot comprehend. And the inane line of constant questions is desperate and dodgy at best.

I can't comprehend the answers, so either the answers are incoherent, or I'm just slow. Maybe I'm just slow, lol.

It should also be said, that different atheists give different answers, some appeal to the ethos of the golden rule, others to social consensus, others to some utilitarian dichotomy, some believe morality is merely an illusion, and other like Stevel believe there is no such thing as morality. And some atheists are not moral relativist, but realist. In a lot of these scenarios the questions are being asked to different people.
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26-05-2015, 02:51 PM
RE: Atheism and morality
(26-05-2015 02:47 PM)jennybee Wrote:  Tomasia, I think you should start a new thread and we can talk about fashion---outfits/shoes subjectively Smile I'm up for that Thumbsup

I bet you my taste in shoes and dresses are better than yours.
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26-05-2015, 02:51 PM
RE: Atheism and morality
(26-05-2015 02:41 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(26-05-2015 02:37 PM)WalkingSnake Wrote:  YES

P.S. Even a religious society.

Suppose I was born into a tribe that engages in infanticide of their handicap children. Would I be able to perceive the tribes actions as wrong, on some basis other than social consensus? Like empathy?

Why are you asking me? This is you. You're asking if you were born into that tribe.

Me, though? I'm gonna have to be honest. I really don't know. As I've pointed out upon joining this forum, I was raised a Christian and just turned full blown atheist a couple months ago. Had I continued in the environment of the fundamentalist conservative Christianity, I may still hold the same beliefs now that I did then. And the beliefs I had back then... No
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26-05-2015, 02:52 PM (This post was last modified: 26-05-2015 02:56 PM by ClydeLee.)
RE: Atheism and morality
(26-05-2015 02:46 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(26-05-2015 02:42 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  Potentially yes; potentially no. It depends on how significant you would deem some moral values. Your society would have influence on you but some people can see outside or from other perspectives not of their society. But group influence is a strong social function.

What do you mean by some people can see outside?

outside of their society. As in not through the lens of their culture. It's potentially difficult. I don't know for certain, but it's probably a thing "education" helps someone do and I think literature/stories from other perspectives helps it a lot. Recent studies do show that reading even things like HarryPotter can help people relate to Outsiders like refugees and different cultural perspectives better.

So for that amazonian woman to have thought of it differently and saved that handicapped child, she was brave to act out. There is the case a lot of times people feel something others are doing is wrong, but are too afraid to act upon it because they feel alone and outnumbered by the majority. That can be a tough case to crack. The story of that woman is also relative to the farmer/whatever he was in the story who saved the live of Oedipus instead of letting the child die by order of the king.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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26-05-2015, 02:52 PM
RE: Atheism and morality
(26-05-2015 02:51 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(26-05-2015 02:47 PM)jennybee Wrote:  Tomasia, I think you should start a new thread and we can talk about fashion---outfits/shoes subjectively Smile I'm up for that Thumbsup

I bet you my taste in shoes and dresses are better than yours.

LOL--oh really Tongue I bet I have more shoes than you...
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26-05-2015, 02:53 PM
RE: Atheism and morality
(26-05-2015 02:51 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(26-05-2015 02:47 PM)jennybee Wrote:  Tomasia, I think you should start a new thread and we can talk about fashion---outfits/shoes subjectively Smile I'm up for that Thumbsup

I bet you my taste in shoes and dresses are better than yours.

....And my dresses could beat up your dresses Tongue
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26-05-2015, 02:58 PM
RE: Atheism and morality
(26-05-2015 02:49 PM)Timber1025 Wrote:  
(26-05-2015 02:46 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  What do you mean by some people can see outside?

What do you mean by "What do you mean by some people can see outside?"?

Ah for crying out loud, how many pages in this and other threads?

It's simple:

We are born with

Instinct for self preservation

instinct for preservation of the species

empathy

We are social animals.

That is all you need to know to understand what people will consider moral or ethical or right or proper within the construct of their society.

Deviations from this are evolutionary differences in the endowment with above traits.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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26-05-2015, 03:01 PM
RE: Atheism and morality
(26-05-2015 02:52 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  outside of their society. As in not through the lens of their culture. It's potentially difficult. I don't know for certain, but it's probably a thing "education" helps someone do and I think literature/stories from other perspectives helps it a lot. Recent studies do show that reading even things like HarryPotter can help people relate to Outsiders like refugees and different cultural perspectives better.

So for that amazonian woman to have thought of it differently and saved that handicapped child, she was brave to act out. There is the case a lot of times people feel something others are doing is wrong, but are too afraid to act upon it because they feel alone and outnumbered by the majority. That can be a tough case to crack. The story of that woman is also relative to the farmer/whatever he was in the story who saved the live of Oedipus instead of letting the child die by order of the king.

Do you think that when it comes to something like the golden rule, that people are not able to perceive this in some form of the other without a sort of social or cultural influence? That there's no sort of primordial perception that one's should desire on others, what they don't desire for themselves? Do you believe that our very nature doesn't incline us to this recognition beyond any sort of cultural or social indoctrination?
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26-05-2015, 03:04 PM
Atheism and morality
(26-05-2015 03:01 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(26-05-2015 02:52 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  outside of their society. As in not through the lens of their culture. It's potentially difficult. I don't know for certain, but it's probably a thing "education" helps someone do and I think literature/stories from other perspectives helps it a lot. Recent studies do show that reading even things like HarryPotter can help people relate to Outsiders like refugees and different cultural perspectives better.

So for that amazonian woman to have thought of it differently and saved that handicapped child, she was brave to act out. There is the case a lot of times people feel something others are doing is wrong, but are too afraid to act upon it because they feel alone and outnumbered by the majority. That can be a tough case to crack. The story of that woman is also relative to the farmer/whatever he was in the story who saved the live of Oedipus instead of letting the child die by order of the king.

Do you think that when it comes to something like the golden rule, that people are not able to perceive this in some form of the other without a sort of social or cultural influence? That there's no sort of primordial perception that one's should desire on others, what they don't desire for themselves? Do you believe that our very nature doesn't incline us to this recognition beyond any sort of cultural or social indoctrination?

Convergent evolution.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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